Carol Fishman Cohen: Welcome to 3 2, 1 iRelaunch the podcast where we discuss return to work strategies, advice, and success stories. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, CEO, and co-founder of iRelaunch and your host. Before we get started, I want to remind our relaunchers who are listening to make sure to go to the iRelaunch.com website and sign up for our Job Board, because that is where employers are going to hire relaunchers for their career reentry jobs and programs. Let's start with our conversation for today. Today we welcome Wendy Sachs, a seasoned communications executive and creative storyteller. Wendy has spent more than two decades in media as a journalist, Capitol Hill Press secretary, Emmy Award-winning TV producer, Forbes columnist, author, film director, and digital editor in chief.

Additionally, Wendy is a frequent keynote speaker giving talks about growing confidence, embracing failure, engineering serendipity and taking risks. In today's episode, we speak with Wendy and her career pivots and the career breaks that she's taken along the way. Wendy, welcome to 3, 2, 1 iRelaunch.

Wendy Sachs: Thank you so much for having me, Carol.

I'm a big fan of the work that you're doing and of your company and it's so great to know that companies are actually looking to hire relaunchers, so, thank goodness for that.

Carol Fishman Cohen: I know. thank you. I know that we have been in touch for a long time through a lot of career transitions for you, and I'm really excited to have the opportunity to talk to you about these transitions and career breaks.

And you're absolutely right, over time, the number of companies, employers, that even public sector employers that are, offering career reentry programs has increased exponentially. And we are really excited about the increasing recognition of the talents of relaunchers. So let me start though, with asking you a little bit about your professional journey, because there's this misconception that careers should be linear and that sometimes employers will look negatively if they're interviewing you, if you have career breaks and career pivots. And I wanted to know, was that ever something that was of concern to you while you were entertaining your first career change?

Wendy Sachs: Absolutely. I'll be honest, I have, I think my career has been very untraditional. I have definitely hopped scotched around. I am the definition of non-linear. But I can we, and we may discuss later how I connect the dots for people. Yeah. Because I think that's the biggest challenge.

But yes, I would say that there is definitely a concern of how am I explaining myself? How am I repositioning? Are people gonna think I'm super lame that I can't hold a job. I've had so many. How do I explain it? How do I talk about gaps? And also just, switching it up so much, right? And that is truly what I learned to hone in on when I was writing the book, Fearless and Free, How Smart Women Pivot and Relaunch their Careers. How do you sell your story to someone? How do you explain it in a way that is cohesive, that makes sense, and that you actually feel like very confident and empowered by.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah. So Wendy, before we go any further, I have to just hold up the Fearless and Free book. So I've been a fan of yours for so long that there was a book you wrote before that called How She Really Does It, and I have that book too. And these books have been on my special shelf of books about women and careers, which I have been collecting for almost two decades now.

I'm glad you mentioned your book, and, that's a great place to actually start, give us a little bit of background about your professional journey. And I'm interested when you're telling us, you talk about how you like, weave the different pieces of it together. So maybe you would be demonstrating that even in the way you describe it.

Wendy Sachs: Yeah. Okay. So my elevator pitch to you, Carol, would be, I'm, the through line to my career has been storytelling, and that's really the theme that sort of connects everything that I've done in my career. Now, I will tell you, we didn't call ourselves storytellers back in the day. I went to journalism school, I was a journalist, and then I started my career on Capitol Hill as a Capitol Hill Press secretary.

I like to say that I was the youngest capital press secretary and the lowest paid in 1993, and they published this information, so I can tell you that for sure. I'm making $15,000 a year in 1993. I was the lowest paid. Yeah. Yeah. From there I left Capitol Hill and I went into television and I moved to New York, and then I worked at Fox and I worked at CNN and I worked at NBC.

And after that, it was the big .com first, first evolution of.com madness. And I wanted to get in on that. And, I started working for a startup company that Larry Ellison, the head of Oracle had created. and then 9/11 happens, and I have my first baby and I'm struggling to figure it all out.

How do I have that sort of high flying career, but also, be around for my baby who I was nursing and I knew that NBC was looking for a journalist to come cover 9/11, but I didn't wanna leave my baby. And that moment was really what inspired How She Really Does It, which was how do you balance a career and family?

And let me also remind you, that was 20 years ago. That was in the beginning really, of this idea of work life balance. And the beginning of blogging, there were no bloggers. It was like the dawn of the internet era where people were actually moms, women, people were just like writing down their thoughts of the moment. And I really jumped into that scene. And from there I went into PR because I thought, PR seems a lot more friendly than in work life friendly than hopping on planes like I was doing for NBC. I was chasing tornadoes and every sort of like major event from the OJ Simpson trial to a plane crash at a military Air Force base.

And PR seemed like a much more sort of family friendly environment. So I moved into PR and, but all of this really is storytelling. It was, how do I define a story? How do I sell something? What is the messaging behind it? What's gonna make for a sexy headline? And it, a lot of it is also the relationship building.

And so this was how I was moving through the world between PR and writing and blogging and being an author and television production. And that has really been my journey throughout, throughout my career and I come in and out of these different moments. Then I actually directed and produced a film, in 20 that was actually released in 2020 for Showtime called Surge, about the record number of women running for office in the 2018 midterm elections.

But all of that sort of brought together my passion for storytelling, for topical news of the day, for politics, so it really, to me merges everything that I've been passionate about. But I will also share with you, getting hired for positions when you hop around, can also be challenging.

And I know that's been something that is very close to the heart of what you guys do and how you sell your story and how you actually get that job.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And that, those are my next questions as you're speaking. One of the things was, you're telling us this story now in retrospect, but like when you are in the moment, especially in those earlier career pivots, were you afraid that there was going to be some consequence for you working either a short period of time or changing along the way?

Wendy Sachs: I was always afraid. I think I, I'll be like very honest. I think there's always a level of sort of anxiety riding on, does this make sense? Can I do it?

That whole imposter syndrome comes up all the time. That's very real. And you just have to push yourself through it, because I do think that traditionally, and also because I started doing this 20 years ago with my, I'm gonna write a book, I'm gonna do this, I'm going to switch it up again.

It wasn't as accepted as I think it is today. We're now, side hustles and all of that is, is part of our vernacular. It's a badge of honor, to be like leaving a job and jumping into something new. Everyone applauds that. They weren't really doing that 20 years ago when I started, and I think there was, there was definitely employers who thought and jobs I did not get because people thought, she's not gonna stick around.

Carol Fishman Cohen: So, if we were gonna role play in the early days before you put this all together and had this great narrative around storytelling, how did you address your career breaks and your career pivots when you were in an interview?

Wendy Sachs: I would speak to it, I would definitely lean into it and not shy away from it and explain what I was doing in those moments, but also explain how everything connected to something else and how it connected to what that job was.

I think that what's really important and and I'm sure you do a lot of talking about this also on your websites and with your experts. But how you define yourself on LinkedIn when you're applying to a job, speak directly to what that job is and how my unique experience, in various areas that, quite frankly, I would always say are very adjacent to each other, how it's gonna help that employer hiring that hiring manager, how will it help that position. And I fully a thousand percent believe that all of my various jobs and job paths have really created sort of a wealth of contacts for me, a knowledge base that other people don't have. I have a deep bench of resources that I have found whenever I start a new television project or film project or communications project, other people don't have. I know so many people now in so many spaces, that, I mean it's amazing now that when I realize that it really has all jelled together.

But I bring that, so if I'm explaining my position, I'm explaining to you how I'm gonna be able to help you because I've had experience in these various places.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And I guess I'm also thinking, again, when you're talking about what's linked all of this is storytelling. When in the whole progression did you recognize that storytelling was the theme?

Like how far along did you get before it became obvious that this is what, this it was central to it.

Wendy Sachs: 2017 when I was writing Fearless and Free. Truly that is, not to just plug my book, but that was really around the time, the book was inspired because I had been fired multiple times.

So let's like rip the sort of bandaid off of what always can look like a beautiful, like perfect package. I'd been fired three times. And in those moments, and for all sorts of reasons, often it was, oh we can, my last job, before I wrote the book, Fearless and Free, I was told that they could hire three people for my salary.

This is the new world of media, which isn't so new, and I started writing this in like 2016. They could hire, it was true, they could hire three people. I don't think actually it was legal for HR to say that to me, but that is the reality, particularly of the media and entertainment advertising industry.

And so when I started interviewing and I started running around, I live in the New York area, I started interviewing for all of these jobs, like social media managers and all of these jobs that didn't exist when I went to journalism school. But because of the iPhone and apps and social media, there were all these new jobs.

I was way qualified, overqualified for any of these positions. And I was probably 10, 15 years older than everyone else applying for these jobs. And the hiring managers were all like, averaging 27 or 28 years old. And what I realized was I could, I wasn't selling myself appropriately to them.

Like they didn't understand what to do with me, 'cause I didn't fit into a box. Like I said, I was a press secretary, or they saw that on my resume, which had always given me a lot of gravitas in my early years, and it opened doors for me. Now, it was like politics. Yuck. We don't like that around here.

I was like dealing with a different sort of millennial generation. It was a whole different vibe, and I realized I needed to narrow my pitch down. It couldn't be, my resume couldn't be 30 pages long. I should never print it out on paper. They didn't like paper. They only wanted digital. When I showed up with paper, they were upset.

There was a whole new ethos happening in the hiring world and I felt like the grandma, even though I was in my like early forties, I felt so aged out of this young culture that I was trying to infiltrate. And I had this eureka moment after one very bad interview went south, when I walked out of the building, after walking into some startupy place and getting my kale chips and getting my coconut water and all of that, I walk out onto Fifth Avenue and I thought, you know what?

I need to write a book about what's going on here. And I need to lean into the tech culture where all of these guys go belly up with their startups. They blew through a millions of doll of dollars of cash. But you know what? They don't hide under a rock afterwards, they get hired again. Why?

Because people are betting on their talent, not the idea of their business. So I need to lean more into me and what my story is and sell myself in a better way that's gonna make sense. And that was when it coalesced and I was able to say, I'm a storyteller. This is what I can do for you, and this is who I am.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Wow. And things turned around after that. And you were able to get hired pretty soon after?

Wendy Sachs: I would say so. Yeah. It was like it, it was a sort of these small moments where you make these little changes that all of a sudden sort of yield bigger results, and that whole sort of manifestation of the universe. Not to get so woo woo, but it's like the, you make these like smaller changes and how you talk about yourself and how the world knows about you.

Otherwise, it was like, you've done this and this, and no one's not sure really what to do with you.

Carol Fishman Cohen: When you say these small, pivotal moments, this is off the topic of career transition, but is on the topic of small moments leading to big things. I remember when I was in year nine of my 11 year career break, and I was in the kitchen and I was loading the dishwasher for the, I don't know, ten thousandth time, and I close it and I'm like, I have got to get back to work.

There was something about that dishwasher loading that was it, and that sort of started me rolling on the process that ultimately led to me relaunching my career and getting a job back as a financial analyst. These small moments are definitely meaningful and have big consequences.

Can you talk about how you thought about level and compensation, like your title and comp as you were moving through, were you thinking, I'm gonna be super flexible or I always have to have a higher, better title or a higher comp? What was going through your head during all of the pivoting?

Wendy Sachs: Oh, that's such a great question because I feel like so many of us, and I know your audience is, it's not just women and it's all genders, but I will say that women particularly have a hard time fighting for a salary that they deserve. And I'm definitely, one of those people. And I think realistically, I feel like I was afraid to ask for what I felt I deserve because you're just trying to get back in there. I've done a lot of work for free over the years, to way too much work. In fact, that's been a big change in the past couple years where I said, I'm not doing anything for free anymore. This podcast is for free, but that's different. But I was writing for free, Forbes as a Forbes colonist. They don't pay you. it's terrible. It's actually just, it's a terrible, great business model for them, bad business model for the writer. But yeah, I've done all sorts of things where I've made no money just because I need to get in there, including doing my film. I directed and produced a film that was acquired by Showtime, and I didn't make any money on that.

They did pay us, but because there was so much bills to be paid and it's very expensive to make a film, and we had to raise all the money. I didn't make any money. I've been working on documentary projects, where I do get paid. Still, it's not really at the rate that I should be making at this place in my career, but because I have taken breaks and switched gears, I'm not making the salary that I feel like I should be making. Which is why I am, I do other side hustles to make some more money in other places and other places I'll charge more on other projects that I work for because I believe I should get compensated. So it's an interesting, it's a great question and it's a very interesting, my answer is like I'm a little bit all over the place because I'm trying to continue to do the work I wanna do, just also knowing where the market is and what they pay can also be very frustrating. So my, my advice for folks though, who are looking to switch it up is, yeah, you have to eat a little dog food on the salary piece of it. It's unfortunate. Not everyone, maybe, in my case I've had to.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Everyone's situation is unique. When we're working with employers on career reentry programs, we stress that when they figure out the compensation, they should be looking at the salary band for the role that the person's in, and maybe you pick something in the lower half of that salary band, but then you prorate it for the number of weeks of the internship.

And to really underscore that this is not a way to get inexpensive labor. This is a way to harness the potential of high caliber talent. and it's working out that way. Like this model is super successful, 85% of the people in them on average get hired at the end.

There's a whole philosophy around intent to hire that the expectation is that people will be hired as opposed to the possibility. That's all happened over the last 15 years of evolution of these programs. But it's still a hot topic because for those relaunchers who are, who have a career break and they're pivoting, one of the reasons that I actually wrote an article in HBR about this, Five Different Reasons Why People Take Lower Comp When They Relaunch, and one of the reasons is if they are pivoting into a new field and they feel like they have to come in more entry level, they may have transferable skills, but they, they have not been in that field before, and many of them are prepared to do that and then work their way up over time.

Wendy Sachs: First of all, it makes a lot of sense to do it that way. You are, you're not coming in at a high level, you have to build up again. And you just hope, okay, I'm gonna start here, but then the next bump, I need to make this much the next bump. And I've done that for myself, also, just asking for more and more. Because, you should know your value. But there's also, there's, the market will also only pay what the market thinks it should be paying. So you, there's a few different things that are going on.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah, and for example, I've had very senior salespeople who took like a 10, 12 year career break and have come in as contract salespeople because they can't get that, that even though they won all these awards, they can't get that same level role right out of the gate.

They have to start, some of them started really low and then worked themselves up, and now are in a higher position than they were when they, took their career break. So again, there's a lot of unique characteristics to everyone's situation, but I appreciate you talking frankly about this, because it's a topic that we don't talk about enough because not enough people will engage on it in a frank way, so thank you.

Wendy Sachs: I think a lot of people, first of all, I think it can be very embarrassing to feel like, I'm 50 years old, I should be making X amount of money. I look around and everyone who start who's younger than me is making X amount of money and I'm not. And you can feel very badly about yourself.

It goes to the heart of sort of your own personal values. So I do think, and I love that you're asking the question, I think there needs to be a lot more conversations about it. And we need to also, we should be sharing salaries. I know that there's a whole movement particularly among, among women to be sharing salaries and not be holding back because you just don't know, 'cause there's so much discomfort talking about money, but we should know what the guys are making, right? We really should know what salaries are and, I applaud New York that they're now you have to list what a salary is when you're hiring.

Really important. It's gonna be transformative, I think.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And also in Massachusetts on a number and New York too, I think a number of other states, you're not allowed to ask the, your salary of your prior job and then base whatever your new salary is for your new job on that. That's, that new job has to have its own dedicated salary range unrelated to what the person was making before.

Wendy Sachs: I know.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And that is really great for relaunchers because, we've been out for a long time and we were paid a certain amount of money, but it was in like, 10 years ago dollars and yeah, so those developments have been really significant. Can you share with us a little bit about your creative process? And I'm not just talking about the documentaries that you're doing now, but whether it's in a book or, I know you did a TED Talk, and ultimately on the films that you work on.

What is that creative process and does it happen by, because one day you're just struck with an idea or you ruminating on it for a long time and then all of a sudden it seems right.

Wendy Sachs: That's such a good question. It's funny 'cause I actually feel like I had that, that struck with lightning feeling yesterday.

I am a kind of person who gets something gets like an idea stuck in their head and becomes like obsessed with it, and have to do something about it. And it's not something that I'm researching like, what will be my idea of the moment I need creativity right now? What shall it be? I'm going to search around for it.

It's generally something that I feel really strongly about. And I just need to do something about. That's what's happened, and it's generally personal. The book stuff is, all the two books I've only done, two have been from a very personal place, but a lot of people write about what you care about, you write about what you know or what's worrying you or what's creating the anxiety or what the stories you feel like you need to share.

So, it comes from a personal place and then it comes from a. I need to know, I need to share this with the world, kind of a thought process. And then the, I just get into it. The creative piece for me is I just start it. I start working on it and I start diving in and I start doing the research and I start looking for characters and I start interviewing and just, even if it's not, I'm not shooting the interviews yet. I just started talking to a lot of people.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And may, let's take, jump to the more recent, and take the film Surge that you worked on that got, that's the one that got bought by Showtime.

Can like, how did that, like, what was the first interview and then how did that, how did you even make that happen and did you have a team and, like, how do you do that?

Wendy Sachs: That was an amazing, that was an amazing process. So it was right after the 2016 election, I was actually finishing up Fearless and Free, and in Fearless and Free, I had written actually a little bit about Hillary Clinton, and about how she presents and how she's dinged for her voice and her, if she doesn't smile enough or she's too smiling, it's not authentic, and her voice is whiny and this and that.

She couldn't win, right? So I was talking about women in leadership and I used her as an example. And of course, we're coming into the 2016 election. Everyone thinks she's going to win. I put my book to bed. My book is actually coming out in February. I send it off and then the election happens, and then the, it was like the entire world exploded.

And coming out of the women's March of 2020 on inauguration day, I'm sorry, in 2017, January, 2017, there was all of these stories coming out, bubbling up about the surge of women running for office for the very first time. It was a surge of women. All of these women, went across the country and...

Carol Fishman Cohen: Like, across the political range too.

Wendy Sachs: Across the political spectrum.

It was, at first it was Republican women, Democratic women. Everyone's running. Everyone's running. Women are inspired to run for office. And I thought, wow, I've been wanting to do a documentary film for my entire career. I had some starts and stops and some crazy situations. I had tapes that caught on fire.

I had all sorts of nutty situations, but my entire life I had wanted to make a documentary. And I thought, this is my moment. And I connected with another filmmaker who also had a similar idea, and in, in February, March of 20 of 2017, and, started looking for, started vetting, who, who are gonna be the characters in this.

And the first place that I went to was actually the Yale Campaign School for Women, which is run by a woman named Patty Russo. And it's a bipartisan organization, they've been around for more than 20 years, and they trained, it's like a bootcamp for training women, although now they say it's not just women, it's non-gendered, but it has historically been for women running for office. And I went in June to their one week training and started looking for characters there who had, were going through the process of it. And ultimately I was hearing lots of names, people who were not at that campaign school, but I know that we, what we wanted to do was represent women across the country.

And at first we were looking at bipartisan women. But then the story in 20 and for the midterms in 2018 really became about Democratic women running for office. So it, then the theme was women looking to flip the red states to, or the red districts to blue. And that became the theme. And I interviewed lots and lots of women, boiled it down to three main characters in Illinois, Texas, in Indiana.

And that became Surge.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Wow. And I just wanna dive in a little further than that. So you identify these characters, you know who, whose campaigns you're gonna be following, and then do you embed a video, like someone with a video camera, a professional video camera with each person and they just film everything?

Wendy Sachs: No, we didn't, no, we didn't have the luxury to do that. My co-director, Hannah Rosenswag and I, we were like, we were bootstrapping this. This was like, we had no money. We were raising money, we were putting things on credit cards, and we were calling in favors to get DP's, the cinematographers to be working with us or get them at low rates.

And we were going to sort of choice moments along the way. And then it got to one point where we totally ran out of money. I was filming one of our candidates in Texas on my iPhone, and some of that footage made it into the film and it's amazing. And we had our basically shooting like iPhone diary, speaking to the phone.

And it's fantastic and it all really worked. So, we had to get very scrappy and I was, running around the country raising money for this. And just, I didn't realize how challenging it was gonna be. Also, we weren't the only people who had the idea of doing a film about women running for office in 2018.

At one point there were about a dozen other films out there, and some were attached to Academy Award-winning directors. So we were not getting the money from the foundations and the grants that these other filmmakers were getting because we had no credits to our name as directors. So that was an added, talk about another pivot, here I was saying I'm a film director, please give me money. And people said, but what have you done? And so it was, we need to do this on our own. We have a, an incredible story. We wound up with an incredible editor and the film is tremendous. But it took, going back to your question, do you ever do anything for free?

And that kind of, this was all like, we love this so much, we are so passionate about this project, we are going to kill ourselves until we get it done. It was Covid and very challenging film festivals were canceled, and at the last possible moment we got it acquired, we got it sold to Showtime, and it was like the stars aligned.

Wow. And the film was released.

Carol Fishman Cohen: What a story that is. I'm just, again, telling it retrospectively versus being in each one of those moments. There must have been a lot of talk about pivotal moments this moment.

Wendy Sachs: It was crazy. I did one interview, it was a group interview. I pulled over, you said did we, embed it and all.

Because we started like really running outta money to travel to these shoots, and I knew that there were these moments we needed to capture. I had our camera woman in Texas filming a big event in Texas, a big political event with our main character, and I said, okay, when you get all of the, I want you to gather all of these women together, call me and I'll do the interview.

I pulled over to a gas station and held up my iPhone. Someone like held up the phone and I was asking the questions over FaceTime as she was recording them. Those moments also made it into the film, so we got really scrappy and yeah, how we did this, and I was just determined to make this movie and I just felt so strongly about it and we're really proud of it.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Oh, yeah. It's amazing. I've seen it, it, it's incredible. Thank you for bringing us into the moment by moment and giving us a sense of what's involved, what, when you're doing a project like this and it's ambitious and you're funding constrained, but you're just determined to make it happen, so congratulations.

Wendy Sachs: Thank you.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Fabulous, that, that it got picked up, and officially released. before I ask you the question, our final question that we ask all of our podcast guests, can you tell us what you're working on right now? What happened after Surge?

Wendy Sachs: So after Surge, I actually got hired to work on a couple of other TV documentary projects.

One was with CNN and Vox, not Fox. But Vox, V O X.

Carol Fishman Cohen: You got paid. You were getting paid.

Wendy Sachs: I was getting paid. You know what? Coming out of Surge, I said, I'm not doing anything else for free. This also became my whole, I cannot work for free anymore. I can't afford it, aside from just personally, I've got two kids in college.

I need to make money. I don't have the luxury of just. working for free anymore, it's just enough already. And it does something also emotionally to you when you're just for so many years not getting compensated. So I said I need to do things where I'm getting paid, and so I started working on a, on several different documentary projects.

The last one was a project with MSNBC, which unfortunately just got canceled after we spoke two weeks ago. . MSNBC decided to pull the plug on it, because they're switching directions and, but this is the world of media and entertainment today. I've got another project that's in development that hopefully I'll be able to talk about as soon as that gets picked up.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Wow. Yeah, that's really something. You work really hard and something gets completed and then it just, doesn't make it too into the public domain.

Wendy Sachs: Yeah. It happens more often than you can imagine. yeah. Things get killed and I think, there's a lot of upheaval right now in entertainment as we know.

I'm the member of the WGA. There's a writer's strike going on. There's a lot of, there's a lot of tumult right now in the industry.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah, for sure. Well, Wendy, thank you so much. I know how busy you are. We so appreciate you taking the time to have this conversation. As we wrap it up, I do want to ask you the question that we ask all of our podcast guests, and that is, what is your best piece of advice for our relauncher audience, even if it's something that we've already talked about today?

Wendy Sachs: Taking action, you have to take action. It is those small steps. It's so easy to feel like you're getting stuck and you're paralyzed by either fear or insecurity or just laziness of just procrastinating, or not knowing what to do first, or next, or just really the fear of moving forward. And it's small actions lead to bigger actions and inertia is the killer. So, you just need to start doing something every single day.

Carol Fishman Cohen: That is such great advice. It is so true. I that soundbite inertia is the killer. It's really true when people, that's one of the reasons we tell people try to do this with another person or a group to keep your momentum to know that every Tuesday at 10 o'clock you're gonna have a meeting after report back on the goals you set from the week before.

'Cause otherwise, things come up and three weeks can go by and you are, you just lost more time. So I'm so glad to be ending on that note. Wendy, thank you so much for having this conversation.

Wendy Sachs: Thank you, Carol. It was a pleasure.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And thanks for listening to 3,2,1 iRelaunch, the podcast where we discuss return to work strategies, advice, and success stories.

I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, CEO, and co-founder of iRelaunch and your host. Be sure to check out our resources on iRelaunch.com, and register for our Job Board and see everything else that we have there available for relaunchers. Thanks everyone for joining us.