Carol Fishman Cohen: Welcome to 3,2,1 iRelaunch, the podcast where we discuss return to work strategies, advice, and success stories. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, CEO and co-founder of iRelaunch and your host. Before we get started today, I want to remind our audience to register for our iRelaunch Job Board if you are actively looking to relaunch your career now, because that is where employers come to hire people who are returning from career break. So keep that in mind. You can find it on iRelaunch.Com.

Now to today's conversation today. We welcome Katie Perry. Katie is the chief executive of the Daphne Jackson Trust, which under her leadership has become the UK's leading organization dedicated to helping returners relaunch their research careers.

Katie is a physicist with a background in science communication and holds a degree and PhD in physics from the University of Surrey, where she worked with Professor Daphne Jackson, the name sake of the organization. In 2022, Katie was awarded an honorary degree by the University of Surrey in recognition of her unwavering commitment to securing the legacy of Daphne Jackson's trust vision.

Since inception, the Daphne Jackson Trust has awarded more than 475 fellowships to relaunching researchers in STEM and other fields, an amazing feat.

Katie, welcome to 3,2,1 iRelaunch.

Katie Perry: Carol, thank you. It's an absolute pleasure to be here chatting with you today, and it's fantastic to be able to talk about the Daphne Jackson Trust to a broader audience and certainly to all of your relaunchers.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yes. Well, we're excited to hear everything about it, and maybe we can start with a little background about the Daphne Jackson Trust for our listeners who might be unfamiliar with it. So could you share a little bit about the trust and the mission and the history?

Katie Perry: Of course, of course. So, Daphne Jackson was an amazing lady.

She was the UK's first ever female professor of physics, when she was age thirty-four. And she was quite a mentor to me actually in my career because when I was doing my degree and PhD at the University of Surrey, she was my head of department and she's the reason I actually launched out after my PhD into a career in science communication.

She became ill in 1990 towards the start of my PhD and she asked me to do all of her talks in schools for her. So that really helped to ignite my interest in science communication. So I knew Daphne when she was alive, and I knew the integrity with which she set up the fellowships. So she set these fellowships up when she was alive in the mid 1980s.

The story goes, as she told me, she bumped into one of her ex research students in a supermarket, and she was there stacking the shelves. And she said, What on earth are you doing that for, with, you started a promising research career. And the answer came back that she'd had a break for a family, and she just couldn't get back into research. So Daphne herself thought she would do something about this, so she set up the fellowships. They were intended to be part-time to allow a researcher to do a challenging research project alongside an individually tailored retraining program that would aim to take away the disadvantage of the career break, place them back on a level playing field with the rest of the research workforce, and be their stepping stone back to a research career, because she thought all of the investment in and investment and time in their education and training is wasted if they have a break and don't return.

Carol Fishman Cohen: That's an incredible story and amazing that you had that relationship and direct experience with Daphne Jackson herself and had that special role when, after she became ill.

What a visionary, and such an amazing legacy that she's left. Can you, Katie, tell us a little bit more about the fellowships themselves? Like who's eligible? How do you get one? And maybe what, what happens if you have a fellowship?

Katie Perry: Of course, Carol. So the fellowships started originally aimed at women, who were in a STEM area.

So STEM, clearly science, technology, engineering, maths. But over the years they've evolved. So we offer fellowships to all individuals, and they can now be in, in 2020. We expanded our remit. So they are for all researchers, so across all research areas, so not just STEM, we fully include now the arts and humanities and social sciences.

So in order to be eligible for a fellowship, you have to have had a career break of at least two years for a family caring or health reason. So, we produced a survey last year and we can look and see that now the reasons for the career break, 72% of people, it's a family reason, 21% is caring responsibilities, and for 7% it's ill health.

So we have those other smaller percentages, but it does encompass all of those reasons. And quite often they're combined. So sometimes somebody will have a family, but they'll also relocate with a partner. They're out of their normal circle of contacts, and then they're looking to return and they struggle to return.

So the actual fellowship, they were originally two years. We are trying to make them all three years now. So they're three years part-time. And they usually, the research fellowships are usually held in, in UK universities, or research establishments. So currently they're in the UK so they're three years.

And as I say, it's a research project and an individually re tailored retraining program, for that individual. What the fellowships offer people is the opportunity to either return to the area of research they were in before or potentially to slightly shift the area of expertise. And we have had some quite major shifts.

So one of my favorite stories of a fellow is a lady who actually had a 17 year career break. So she was an environmental engineer before her break. She then had a career break. She had a. family. She had three children. One of them was severely autistic and that had ignited her interest in autism research.

So sometime later when her child was old enough, she decided to try and return to autism research and kept getting the usual knock backs, which is look, you don't have any experience in this field, but equally, you've had a long break, you know? And she was trying to say, I've got transferrable skills, once a researcher was a researcher, but she just couldn't get back in. So for her, the fellowship was a lifeline. And it offered her the opportunity with the retraining program to learn all of the new skills she needed to launch herself off into a new career in autism research. And in fact, she now has a large grant. She's continuing in her research and she's doing extremely well.

Carol Fishman Cohen: That's incredible. I'm interested in hearing about this story and generally how you talk about who's eligible, what does an application process look like, and how does a person talk about their past research and bring it into the present to, I don't know, to continue, or tell us a little bit more about on a very granular level, what happens?

Katie Perry: Yeah. The application. So I mean it's, I would say everybody's different. This is what I love about running the organization. I mean, everybody's story is slightly different, and I don't think we've had two research areas the same. But broadly speaking, the application process is quite rigorous.

So we are wanting to ensure that the fellows are suitable for a return to a research career. So there are two ways that people can apply for Daphne Jackson Fellowships now. So we have what we call a regular route, which is somebody will hear about us, come to us and say, Hey, I've heard about the Daphne Jackson Trust, I know where I want to go and what I want to do. And then we will do our eligibility check and then we'll put them into the process to go forward. The other way is where we work with a sponsor, who's wants to sponsor the fellowship, and we advertise an opportunity and we've got five live adverts out at the moment for opportunities for a sponsored fellowship.

So that's where we have a sponsor in upfront. We know that they want to sponsor a fellowship, we advertise it. We still look at the applicants when they come in and do the same eligibility check.

So the eligibility check, we have four fellowship advisors, and it's their role to have that initial conversation with somebody. So it's a telephone call. It lasts about an hour to an hour and a half. They will talk to them about what they did before their break, their career break, why they were on a break, why they think now is a good time to return, and then they will talk to 'em about what they're planning and proposing to do as they go forward into their fellowship and into a new career beyond. We can tease out various things in that initial phone call.

Sometimes if people aren't quite eligible, you know, Carol, sometimes people have read the website and try and make their circumstances fit and it's not quite right, which is a great shame because we'd love to help everybody. But we do have our criteria. So once somebody's eligible, then they start working on a research proposal, and we have guidelines for that.

And then once they've produced a good proposal, then we will interview them. So we interview at an earlier stage. What I would say is many of your listeners may have heard about academic fellowships, we are quite unlike any other academic fellowship out there. So we interview at an early stage, and that interview is, it's a process both of assessment and of support.

So we are helping them to maximize the benefit from their proposal, what they're looking at doing. What we sometimes find is some people returning, they're so keen and eager, they're trying to put too much into it. They're trying to do too much more than they can do in three years part-time. For others, they need, they need maybe a little bit of what you might call parental tough love to get things done on deadlines.

We see every, everything across the whole spectrum of, of returners. So that interview process is quite key for them. And then they have a chance to revise their proposal, and then we send it out to two independent technical referees in that field. When we get the technical reviewers back, comments back, then they can amend their proposal if necessary.

And then it's all sent off to six members of our awards assessment panel. So as you can see, it's quite a rigorous process. It takes some months to, to get through the whole process, but once awarded, the returner has started on their journey back. And what we like to think is that because the process is rigorous, when they start and they go through that door on day one of their fellowship, they hit the ground running.

And what the other thing is, that we've noticed with the process, is their confidence. Quite often at the beginning part of the process, they're a little bit like a deer in the headlights, and they're like, oh my goodness, this is a journey and what am I gonna do? Can I do it? And they question themselves.

Their confidence is at an all time low. Yeah. And what happens during this lengthy process, the application process, is the fellowship advisors are there, and they offer them guidance, mentoring, advice, and they're there basically to answer any questions that they might have to support them along the way.

And so that mentoring and support and guidance happens throughout the application process. And they all say, in fact, I was just having a conversation with one fellow who's been in post for four weeks and we're doing a podcast on Friday. And she said, I'm only four weeks in, but gosh, the support I got during the application process was amazing, 'cause I feel really a lot more confident now than I did at the start.

Carol Fishman Cohen: You know, it's really remarkable to us having worked with returners all over the world. how, how common it is to have that confidence gap. I wanna say a hundred percent or very close to a hundred percent of returners have that confidence gap no matter what their field or the length of their career break, or even like how senior they were before they took the career breaks. It's just, it crosses all geographic lines and it's really interesting to see that.

Katie Perry: It is quite fascinating that even somebody who was really senior prior to a break, having the break, a lengthy break really has absolutely floored them and they question themselves and they really shouldn't.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah, for sure.

Katie Perry: And so, I don't know, Carol, the sort of length of break that your relaunchers have, but typically ours is around seven years.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah, that, that's very similar. We have people whose career breaks range from one to over 20 years, which I know you also have a big range. But, I'd say yeah, in that, seven, five to 10 year range, from people taking career breaks.

And then we often hear people say, you know, I only thought I was gonna be out a year or two, and then the next thing you know, I woke up and 10 years had gone by. So we see that. So let me, let me just understand this a little bit more. I have one point of reference, the National Institutes of Health here in the US have a career reentry grant where if you receive the grant, it's like you have money attached to you and then you can go find a principal investigator who will take you into their lab.

Is. Is that a similar process? Like once the person has been accepted and awarded a fellowship, then they're looking to see where they're going to do their research? Or is that already part of the initial.

Katie Perry: No, we've already tied that in at an earlier stage. So when we assess them for eligibility, after that, then they find their, we call them a supervisor, so we find them, so they have a supervisor and then they work with their supervisor on developing their research proposal.

So we, we've tied that in at a much earlier stage, and then we have to have the funding in place for the fellowship before we'll invite them in for an interview. So it, all that gets tied up earlier on. And I think, for many of them, when they're returning, if they've had a long break, they would not perhaps be confident enough to write that research proposal on their own.

The support that they get from their supervisor in actually developing and writing the research proposal is quite key. So I think it probably, it's worth me just saying about the financial model for the fellowships. So we are effectively a facilitating organization. So we facilitate the fellowships, we match, we effectively match people with sources of funding.

So our fellowships are sponsored by organizations that have an interest in the research that's undertaken. So that can be the UK research councils, universities, other charities, quite a few medical research charities, learning societies and professional institutions that are subject specific, of which we have many in the UK and then also industry, small amount but but increasing. So we have about five different groups, if you like, of sponsors. We will work with those either in our proactive model where we're advertising for those organizations, or we work reactively where I have sources of funding that I can match to people. So once they get to a certain point, we'll make sure that the funding's in place, there's supervisors in place and they're all ready to come in for an interview.

And then the rest of the process goes through fairly quickly.

Carol Fishman Cohen: I see. And as far as the match goes, like for the example, the person who is doing the autism research, you're matching that person with an organization that does autism research or is looking for research to be done in that area?

Like where, how does that work?

Katie Perry: Yeah, that would be the case. For that lady, she was actually sponsored by the hosting organization, which was Newcastle University, but we have others. So we are currently working with the Alzheimer's Society in the UK and where that's one of our live adverts at the moment.

We're also working with an organization called Life Arc, which is looking at translational research. So usually, yes, it's an organization that is interested in the research that the fellow will undertake. But in the UK certainly we are finding that there's such a focus at the moment on equality, diversity, and inclusion that many organizations are wanting to do more in that area and show that they're fully inclusive.

And obviously working with a returner is it allows them, I hate to say the phrase, but it allows them to tick a box and show in a demonstrable way that they are engaging with the EDI agenda, and it's something that they're committed to.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And then what kind of academic background, is there a minimum level of academic achievement that you have to have in order to be eligible?

Katie Perry: So yeah, to be eligible, you have to have a first degree and then at least three years research experience. So that's normally, overwhelmingly, a PhD or then post-doc experience. We have helped people who've got just a first degree and research experience, and that's usually engineers or people who've worked in the pharmaceutical industry.

But, most typically it's somebody who's got a degree of PhD and then usually maybe a few years of postdoc experience. So that's, the minimum is a degree in three years research experience. And then we have, we go up to people who've perhaps had, even, they've been a group leader, and they've, they've gone on to, I'm just looking at our research.

So 1% group head from our last former fellow survey, but most typically, it's people who were a postdoctoral researcher. So they'd completed their PhD and then they'd maybe done one or two postdocs.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And are the people who are supervising them, do they get any kind of special training or how do they get involved in the first place?

Katie Perry: It's, quite often it's usually the fellow themselves that will go and find their supervisor.

Carol Fishman Cohen: I see. Ok.

Katie Perry: So if they go and find their supervisor, if we have anyone that comes to us and they're really struggling, then we can guide them. But typically we would expect them to be able to find a supervisor.

They'll talk to them about the fellowships. Quite often the supervisor will have heard about us and they're very happy to get involved. Usually if it's an institution that's had fellowships in the past, then they'll know about us. In terms of formal training, we don't offer the supervisor any formal training, but we do, we do contact them and have phone calls with them and want to know that they are fully aware of exactly what it is they're taking on, if they want to take on a Daphne Jackson fellow. So it's more informal training. We often find that former Daphne Jackson fellows go on to supervise Daphne Jackson fellows in the future. And that's great when they do that, so.

Carol Fishman Cohen: That's huge because that's one of the signs that we see of a true institutional shift is when there is a critical mass of returners inside an organization or in a field, because then not only are they gonna be examples for what success looks like, but they are going to be likely to hire other returners. That's a very important piece. Can you say how much the fellowship is the amount of money, or does it depend on ...

Katie Perry: We ask the host organization to set the salary for the Daphne Jackson fellows.

Carol Fishman Cohen: I see.

Katie Perry: Because in the UK it was a long time ago, but they, there used to be one centralized salary scale for post-doc researchers and universities. But then when they decentralized it all, what we did some research, Carol actually a few years ago to say, look, what's going to be best for host organizations if we say a Daphne Jackson fellow will be paid this much, and actually the organizations came back to us and said, look, that would make you really awkward to deal with. So we allow them to set the salary. We recommend a range and we give a generic job description so that they can fit them in at the right level in their particular salary scale in their organization.

But typically, a Daphne Jackson fellow would be paid the same as a postdoc in, in a university. The cost to a sponsor is a little bit more, so very roughly, the cost to a sponsor to fully sponsor a Daphne Jackson fellowship over, if it's fully sponsored for three years is around about a hundred thousand.

You get GB pounds.

Carol Fishman Cohen: GB pounds, right, got it. And you had mentioned that there's also some sort of individualized plan. Is that besides the sort of academic research part, there's something to support them in the actual...

Katie Perry: ...retraining program transition...

Carol Fishman Cohen: Okay. Can you tell us a little bit more about what's involved with that part of it?

Katie Perry: So that is something that the fellow and the supervisor will devise between them. See, it typically will be offered by the host organization where they're working. So it'll be a mixture perhaps of, of them dipping in and out of lectures that are relevant. It will basically be maybe training on pieces of equipment in the laboratory if they're going back to that sort of area.

It's maybe training that's done by other group members, other courses at the university. It depends on whether they are what they're doing. So one lady who had a shift from being in maths and statistics, she realized bioinformatics was an emerging field a number of years ago after her break. So she used the retraining program to learn all the biological sciences she needed to know to launch herself off into a career in bioinformatics.

So hers was far more about learning the biology, whereas if you take somebody who's coming back and maybe there's new pieces of equipment in their lab, they'll be trained on that. But in addition to that, so they're all completely bespoke to the individual and what they did before and what they're planning to do in the future.

But what we do, what we offer them are three training courses that we run. And the purpose of those is to get them all together as a cohort so that we can check in with them. We can put them in contact with one another. We can naturally teach them some very valuable things, which the training courses do.

But it's a lovely way of pulling them together as a cohort.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yes, the cohort can be very powerful. We know that from our own experience with career reentry programs at employers that are not research based, that, it is a significant personal, professional life transition, as you well know.

And when you go through it together, the bonds that you form with people.

Katie Perry: Oh gosh, absolutely.

Carol Fishman Cohen: It's really powerful. And actually, that's one of my questions, once people graduate from the program, is there some sort of like alumni community or some that's part of Daphne Jackson? Like how does that part work?

Katie Perry: We keep in contact with them. And I think the fact that we had, we collected data from 90% of our target cohort for our last former fellow survey shows that they're really happy to stay in contact with us. So we make an effort to stay in contact with them, but actually as it's, this is really exciting.

We started a LinkedIn group yesterday for current and former fellows.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Wow, yesterday?

Katie Perry: And within 24 hours we've got 90 of them signed up.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Wow. Oh, that's great.

Katie Perry: I was like, oh my gosh, it's amazing. So within 24 hours, 90 of the current and former fellows, and some of them, one of them a lady who had a 21 year career break, and she's joined up and, it's fantastic.

So I think they will have a, their own LinkedIn group now where they can communicate with one another. What we found is that they form geographical groups. So we have a group in Scotland and it's made up of former fellows, current fellows and applicants, and they all support one another. And we have a group in the southwest.

We have a group in the Midlands. We have a group in the northeast of England. They will generally form groups themselves, and then support one another, but we always try and keep in contact with them through the, through the conferences that we run every two years, but also now in a non-conference year, we are gonna be having our fellows networking event where we will pull together format and current fellows to, to network.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Can you tell us what the conference is?

Katie Perry: Oh, the conference. Gosh, that's exciting. Every two years we run, a conference where we, it's open to all of the current and recent former fellows, and we are starting to now invite more of the former fellows along. But what we'll try and do is we'll try and look at some of the key topics in our sector, things that are affecting returners, things that are affecting policy, et cetera. So what we do is we offer the fellows an opportunity to come along and present a poster or an object, and then we will have other sessions around that. So we actually managed at the last conference last year to pull in the chief executive of the main UK funding agency UKRI, in a panel discussion alongside the chief executive of the Royal Society and the Royal Society of Chemistry. So we had some key funders. And the thing that amuses me about this, Carol, we used one of our patrons to facilitate it, vivian Perry, who has been on the board of UKRI. And all of these, all of these people in these positions were women.

And still in our feedback, we had a negative comment about the fact that we had an all female panel and it's oh my goodness, I really can't believe this. They were there because of their roles, not because they were women. But you can never please everybody all the time. That just proves it. But so the conference is a mixer of getting the fellows together with their sponsors, together with the staff and our trustees and other key stakeholders within the UK research sector.

And it, it's a fantastic, it's a fantastic day.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Wow. it sounds amazing. Are there a couple of other success stories you could share with us or tell us where people can find more success stories?

Katie Perry: Oh yeah. Gosh, success stories, it's where to start really. I think, one of the things that's come out from our impact report that we produced after conducting our former fellow survey, is the rate of professors. So in the UK, another agency provided, produced some data on career paths in academia and they produced a percentage rate of people going into academia that then went on to become professor. And we looked at our cohorts of former fellows and we have 10 former fellows who've gone on to become professors.

And that rate is five times the national average for the academic sector in the UK. So for us, that is a major success story that, that our fellows will go on to, to potentially if they want to stay in an academic career. There's one lady who I love to mention because she conducted her fellowship at the University of Sheffield.

She was sponsored by Rolls Royce because she's an engineer, an aerospace engineer, and she has spent her working life after her fellowship, she was two-thirds of the way through her fellowship, she was offered a job by Rolls Royce, so she took it and went into industry. A little while later, she moved back into academia at Aston University. Then she's moved back and forth between academia and industry, and she is now a professor at Loughborough, and she's done all of this while remaining part-time. So she can prove that you can do it. She's been successful in both industry and academia, and she is, she's amazing. And gosh, she came and spoke at one of our events and she told this fantastic anecdote about her children's party that she did in her dining room.

She shipped in sand and had a beach party. The people that we are dealing with, they're awesome. And I just, I loved that story because, as a mother, you were always thinking of new and in interesting things that you could do for your kids' parties. But right there she was doing her fellowship, but also having a beach party in her dining room.

She's fantastic.

Carol Fishman Cohen: That's great. I love that story.

Katie Perry: But on a more serious note, actually, yes, we are impact reporters on our website, and obviously there are many other publications on, there are annual reviews, but we are moving now more towards just having an impact report. So if anyone wants to download that, I think at the end of this I can make sure everybody has our website address.

The other thing I'd like to highlight on our website on the homepage is the video. Look at the little video. It's four and a half minutes, and it just encapsulates the range of people and subject areas that we cover.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Oh, great. Yes, definitely want to look at that and have our audience look at it too. So Katie, let me ask you about the future. You have been the leader of the Daphne Jackson Trust through a long period and through a tremendous amount of growth. And I'm just curious about how, what your vision is for the future, in terms of the Daphne Jackson's reach and whether you see any opportunities for expansion one way or the other.

Katie Perry: Yeah, it's, it's funny, Carol, often people say to me, you've been there a long time, aren't you thinking of moving on? And I'm like, absolutely not. I love my role and I think, people say they want a new challenge, but I am the sort of person I will find a new challenge for the trust, and then we'll conquer it. So things we are looking at potentially, we've already expanded our remit in 2020 to include arts and humanities and social sciences. Yeah, that's been really successful. We've expanded a little bit internationally to the, to Southern island. So we are now UK and Ireland.

I'm potentially, in my mind, is the thought that we could perhaps look a little broader, a little further afield, and think about how we might develop Daphne Jackson fellowships, or very similar with partners in other countries. So that's something that's on my radar to think about as we've come out of the pandemic and we're all thinking a little bit more globally now.

And then obviously the other thing is we offer our research fellowships, the other thing that we are rolling out this year are something that we are calling technology fellowships. And gosh, we debated the name back and forth, believe me a lot. But I think technology fellowships covers it.

They're intended to support those who want to return to a research support career. Because in the uk, one of the main funding bodies is talking a lot now about research culture and that it's not just a lone PI in a lab or in a, in an office. It's all of the research support and infrastructure that goes with it.

So all of those technicians and others and people running pieces of equipment are equally as important. So we are developing a fellowship that will offer more retraining. So more of a focus on retraining than answering a research question. And we'll place people back in a research support role, so quite clearly, possibly technicians and others.

So that's happening this year and I'm hugely excited about that. So yeah, we'll always find a challenge, and, and hopefully, we'll be going on to bigger and better things all the time.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Well, you have a tremendous track record of everything that you've done with the trust so far, so I'm very glad to hear that you don't plan to leave and take a leadership role somewhere else.

Katie Perry: No, absolutely not.

Carol Fishman Cohen: You're growing the trust and it's impact and, the way it's changed people's lives and changed the course of research and what professors at universities, so many places where the Daphne Jackson Trust has had a significant impact. So let me wrap up now, Katie, I have a couple more questions to ask you. One is gonna be about your website, but I want to first ask you the question that we ask all of our podcast guests, and that is, what is your best piece of advice for our relauncher audience, even if it's something that we've already talked about today?

Katie Perry: This is a tough one actually, but I thought about this and I think my main advice to anyone wanting to relaunch and return is be flexible, be determined, and you will get there.

It might not be by the path you originally thought about, but you will get there.

Carol Fishman Cohen: I love that advice because it's so true and we've seen it play out, in, in all different ways. This idea about having a path, but having some flexibility in terms of how you get there and maybe that the path might turn one way or the other.

Katie Perry: Absolutely.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Excellent. Excellent advice. So how can our audience find out more about the Daphne Jackson Trust and the, that the report that you were referencing and the video, what is the website?

Katie Perry: So our website is simply daphne jackson.org. So that's D A P H N E J A C K S O N, all one word, and then.org, so.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Perfect. And so that, that's really the place to find all of the information. Is there, okay, great.

Katie Perry: I'm very happy, Carol, if anyone wants to just email me directly. I have a memorable name. I'm not the pop star, but, you know...

Carol Fishman Cohen: I was gonna say that at the beginning, but I thought, No, we're not gonna bring her into it.

Katie Perry: It's it's quite an amusing downtown. People do remember your name though? But if anybody wanted to email me directly, it's just, it's Katie dot Perry. And that's K A T I E. P E R R Y @SURREY.UK.

Carol Fishman Cohen: That is so generous.

Katie Perry: More than happy to chat to anyone.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Thank you.

Katie Perry: Carol. We could talk all afternoon.

Carol Fishman Cohen: I know, I feel like we're just at the beginning, but Katie, thank you so much for, for your time and sharing all of your knowledge with us.

Katie Perry: It's been lovely and thank you very much for inviting me on.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And thanks for listening to 3,2,1 iRelaunch, the podcast where we discuss strategies, advice, and success stories about returning to work after a career break. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, CEO, and co-founder of iRelaunch and your host. And be sure to go to iRelaunch.Com for all the resources to help you relaunch your career, including our Job Board and events, and a whole range of information for you, including this podcast.

Thank you so much for joining us.