Carol Fishman Cohen: Welcome to 3, 2, 1 iRelaunch, the podcast where we discuss return to work strategies, advice, and success stories. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, CEO and Co-founder of iRelaunch, and your host. Before we get started, I want to remind our listeners who are actively relaunching to make sure to register and upload your resume to our iRelaunch Job Board. Employers looking to hire relaunchers regularly peruse our job board for candidates for their career reentry jobs and programs. Okay, onto our podcast conversation.

Today we welcome Steven Deeble. Steve is a senior technical writer at Gurucul, a global cybersecurity company protecting data and information from insider threats and external cyber attacks. He has taken career breaks to deal with challenging life events that included caring for his father following a stroke, as well as career changes. I should also add that Steve and I are long-time friends since elementary school, and I'm so thrilled to be in this conversation today about 50 years later. In 2017, Steve was looking to return to his technical career after 12 years as a video producer. He found himself competing with millennials.

I remember that Steve and I had a long talk at that time, which we'll tell you more about. And afterward he took a few steps that kickstarted his relaunch. We're going to get into detail about how Steve relaunched his career, including the mental and emotional journey along the way. Steve ended up with two successive contract roles and his success in these positions restored his self confidence as well as providing his resume with high profile employment that has helped him obtain other positions for prestigious employers, such as the Capital Group and Thompson Reuters Elite.

We're going to talk about his process of restoring his confidence too. He lives in Long Beach, California, my hometown, where he hosts a monthly storytelling event called Riveted. Steve, we have lots to talk about, welcome to 3,2,1 iRelaunch.

Steve Deeble: Carol, I'm so happy to be here with you. It's always good to see you.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yes, this is really extra fun for me too. Let's start with your career path before you took your first career break, and was that when you were caring for your father?

Steve Deeble: Actually I had taken a previous year long career break in my mid 30, following my mother's death. And I did it to do some writing and world traveling, which I had not ever done. I figured by 35 it was time. And at that point, following that year, my return path ended up leading me into a position as a senior technical instructor with a company called FileNet, which proved to be one of the best jobs I've ever had, ironically in part because it provided me with the opportunity to travel internationally.

I had started it already and I just kept going, which was really great. But to your question, in my mid forties, my father had a second stroke and I didn't wanna see him in a nursing home. What I did was I got him back, we had a house in the mountains and he moved up there.

I moved up there and the thing is at the time I was trying to start my video production business, which I had been doing in Long Beach, where I had developed connections and contacts, and I was gradually getting some momentum. So of course the logical thing to do is to move away. I felt that this was important. And what I discovered though, was it was challenging in a couple of ways. First, he was very depressed and I found it was difficult to work in part because I was spending a lot of time and energy trying to engage him in life, and partly because realistically depression is contagious.

So I was wrestling with that a bit myself as a result. But I managed to deal with that and continued to do the video production for many years. And I got to work with a lot of amazing people. I worked with a Broadway star named Kay Ballard, Ray Bradberry and Ann Rice, a couple of famous writers. And former president Clinton. Is in one of my projects, as well as Jerry Brown governor. At that time, he was a previous governor and future governor. I got to do a lot of cool stuff, which was great. And, it was very satisfying as well.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Wow. All right. You had this incredible experience, you're in an elder care role with your father now, and what happened during your career break that ultimately allowed you to change careers or develop a new specialty. Bring us along on the timeline.

Steve Deeble: Sure. One of the things that happened was that FileNet, my previous employer as a senior technical instructor, hired me as a contractor to do instructional development for distance learning versions of the classes that I had taught in a classroom. That was new technology at the time, and I was considered a pretty good instructor. And so it was really nice that they asked me to do this. And that helped me feel good about myself, which is always important.

And then in addition, I got work through friends. I have a really solid network. And that's one of the other points that I wanna make is that you may not recognize the full extent of your network and you always need to maintain that. I had done work for them previously, and I got additional work as a result.

Also, I was volunteering in the nonprofit sector, which initially was work for free but because my name was out there, I was picked up by a couple of different organizations as the go-to guy for doing video production.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Wait, so Steve, hold on a second. So you were volunteering, but then you ultimately got paid for doing that work. Is that what you're saying?

Steve Deeble: No, not for that work, but, by people who knew me through that work.

Carol Fishman Cohen: I see.

Steve Deeble: So, there was a benefit to doing it, beyond just the initial positive impact that the projects were having in the community. It's called karma, doing good things for other people and good things happen to you.

So that was a really nice bonus coming from that stuff, that work.

Carol Fishman Cohen: How did you figure out how much to charge when you were doing all of these different projects?

Steve Deeble: I'll be really honest with you. I was a much better video producer than I was a businessman and it took me a long time to figure out how to do that.

And the end result was I realized I'm trying to wear too many hats. When you own your own business, you wear all the hats, and that can be exhausting in itself, but when you're a video producer and you're a one man video production, you're already wearing a whole bunch of hats. So I just, I started getting burned out.

I realized I needed to make a change and I had this great career that I had stepped away from, in order to do this passion project, if you will. I decided it was time for me to get back into tech.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And when you say tech, can you specifically talk about, or just say what the subspecialty was?

Steve Deeble: Sure. I've always considered technical writing my foundation. I have had some amazing opportunities after I've entered a company as a technical writer. One of them happened to be becoming a technical instructor, so that became a second specialty One of them became, becoming what we called and I, I literally wrote this job description myself, which I ended up taking a technical liaison, where I was the bridge between the account management group and the technical support team, because I could say I could speak English. I understood the technology that we were working with and I could explain it to the people who maybe didn't understand it as well.

And I also served in that same role between our company and our clients. So I was always included in sales calls and supporting the sales team by providing information that they might not be able to express clearly and concisely. all of that stemmed from being a technical writer.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And did you originally come at this from the writing side or the technical side?

Steve Deeble: When I was in school, as far back as when you and I knew each other, I was writing, always writing. And when I got to college, I started writing in the newspaper. My first job was, actually my first writing job was working for the public information office at the college. And one of the press releases that I wrote, in fact, it was my first press release, got picked up by the Los Angeles Times. And I really wasn't even taking it seriously at that point. I just thought, oh, how cool is this? I got a picture, I got a picture in the Times that went with that article.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Oh, that's great.

Steve Deeble: I also was winning awards as a writer. And again, not taking it seriously because I was a film student, all this other stuff was just oh, by the way. So when I had an opportunity to get a position as a junior technical writer at a software company, that was my background. So at the time, really, there weren't any training programs for technical writers. They were coming from all different fields and they always taught us in the journalism program, don't just study writing, study something else so you have something to write about. And I found that I had actually gone back to school afterwards to study electronics. And I parlayed that in my experience as a TA in the electronics program. I found I was a much better TA than I was an electronics tech.

What became evident was I had the communication skills and the ability to understand technical information and communicate it to people. So that's where all that came from.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Okay, that's a really helpful background. Coming back to this point where you decided you wanted to resume your technical writing career, you ended up with a couple of contract roles.

I wanted to know if you could take us through what the roles were and even give us a play by play. Did you email someone, did you have a phone call? What led to you actually getting these positions?

Steve Deeble: A lot of resumes being sent and not getting any response. And that was humiliating.

I had always had success in my job seeking. Generally I would, if I got an interview, I got a job. What was happening at this point was exactly the opposite. I was, I felt like I was screaming into the void and no, no one was hearing me and I didn't know why. I was doing everything the same way I'd been doing in the past that had been successful, but now for some reason, it wasn't. And I don't know what happened but it really started grinding me down. Then I had a couple of, I had had an opportunity to do a contract for a friend of ours, who I'd done work for before. And it was something I'd never done.

We put together an exhibition. So I designed the exhibit and was responsible for fixing old photographs, and setting up displays. And I'd never done any of this before. And it was really successful. And that really helped me remember I'm good. I have value. Even though it wasn't really related to what I was doing as a technical writer, it helped me feel good about myself again and helped me keep going as I pursued the leads, trying to find technical jobs. What happened then was I talked to you.

Carol Fishman Cohen: That's when we had our conversation.

Steve Deeble: And it was one of the most important conversations I've ever had. And honestly, I recall it was about 45 minutes where I told you where I was, and I asked your advice and you really, you gave me the time, and what you said led me to do something that I have to say was instrumental in my success, which was I did something I call de-agifying my resume.

Carol Fishman Cohen:

I think's interesting because usually I wouldn't advise this, but the way you went about it is instructive. So yes, please tell us how you did it.

Steve Deeble: Well the funny thing is, I recall that afterwards, I told you about the success and what I'd done. And I said that you had told me to do it. And you said, no, I didn't. Wait, where did I get this idea then? So basically what I did, resume, the standard resume, you have your job history going back in time. And for each job, it says the year and the month that you started and the year and the month that you finished. It doesn't take much to go back through somebody's resume and figure out how old they are. So I did two things. One, I de-agified it. I took out all of the dates, the months and years, and I replaced them with just the period of time so that they could see what my experience in that position was. And of course at the top of the resume, it said, here's how many years experience I have. I also broke out my resumes in the different areas of focus.

So I had a technical writing resume. I had a technical instruction resume. So it only, it contained the positions related to that job or that job search.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Interesting.

Steve Deeble: So I sent that out and, like virtually as soon as I did that, I got a hit and this company called DISYS, Digital Intelligence Systems, they hired me as a technical writer for a contract they had at Southern California, Edison. I went in there and, initially I was supposed to supplement another writer. And my first day I discovered there was no other writer, I was the guy and I was surprised. And then, the customer, I started working on a document that they wanted, and it basically was a policy, not policy.

It was a, what do you call it? Standard operating procedure, how do they handle tickets in their ticketing system for support tickets. And after I'd been there a week and really only effectively been writing this document for three days, my boss said the customer wants to see what you've done. I said, wait a minute, are you kidding me? I'm working on this document. I've basically got a structure. I've got some ideas for how I'm gonna address it. I've got a bunch of screenshots. He said, they wanna see it. And I could tell there was no way I wasn't gonna be able to show it to them.

So I just said, okay, you need to set their expectations. But what they're gonna see is not the finished document. We have to give them, give me a couple of days so that I can go in and just do the first part and build out the first part so it looks more finished. Because the rest of it's like the skeleton, it's the fish with just the head and then somebody's eating all the meat off the rest of it.

So he agreed. And so they came in the next Tuesday, and I sat down with the lead guy, and I walked him through what I'd done and explained to him my approach. At the end of that, he smiled, nodded and got up and walked out. And I turned to my boss and I said, okay, what just happened? He said he liked it.

I said, okay, explain to me why we had to do this exercise. And he said, the person you replaced was here a month, and at the end of that month, he presented us with a list of documents that he would create.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Oh, I see.

Steve Deeble: And I was like, okay, now I understand. And so I completed that document. I completed a couple of other documents. It was a three month contract. And at the end of that, they were very pleased with my work. And they said, how would you like to work on a contract at the Aerospace Corporation? And for me, that was a dream come true. So of course I said yes. And for that, I had to get a secret clearance, which was something else, that was kind of exciting. And I got work in that environment.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Hold on, let me just say this for our audience. So the Aerospace Corporation happens to be a client of ours through the…

Steve Deeble: Oh, is it really?

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah, through the STEM Reentry Task Force that we run with the Society of Women Engineers, they have a return to work program. But for people unfamiliar, the Aerospace Corporation is a federally funded research and development center.

And they're based in El Segundo, I think.

Steve Deeble: Right. Yep.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And they do very work for very specific clients, correct?

Steve Deeble: Yep.

Carol Fishman Cohen: In the aerospace industry. But yeah, just so even though it says the Aerospace Corporation, it's federally funded research and development centers are like Oak Ridge Labs and Livermore Labs and NASA JPL, like that category of employer.

Steve Deeble: I like to call it a federally funded think tank.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah.

Steve Deeble: Their website, if you look at their website, it says we don't make anything.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Okay.

Steve Deeble: Which is true.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Well, Yeah, that's exactly, that's a great way to describe it. Anyway, so that must have been very interesting environment and you had to get a clearance.

Steve Deeble: I had to get a clearance. And again, I was going in to supplement the team of two other writers. And I arrived on my first day and discovered I was sitting at the desk of one of those two writers. And I thought, wait a minute. what's going on? And apparently they'd let that guy go because of my success at Edison.

They didn't feel that they needed another writer and they wanted me to be in there. And over the next couple of weeks, I demonstrated to them, I don't like to brag, but I have a fairly strong work ethic. In fact, my first day I asked one of the tower leads,

What are you looking for? What do you need? And he says, could you put together a document that describes how we do the break fix process? Which is exactly what I had done at Edison, but this was a much smaller project. And I said, sure. And so he went to lunch and I started working on it.

I interviewed the woman that did the break fix process. And when he came back from lunch, I took him a draft document, and three Visio diagrams with three swimlanes showing how the responsibilities move back and forth between the different groups. And I handed it to him, he looked at it, he goes, what's this? And I said, what's the document you asked me for.

And he said, wow, are you kidding? You did that in just two hours. I said, yeah. He said, it would've taken them a month.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Wow.

Steve Deeble: They liked me out of the gate. I worked there for quite a while and then, I decided to try something else and I moved on from there.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Just to underscore how important, these were contract roles, but they were really meaty, interesting roles and one led to the other. So I just wanted to point that out to our audience, because we are big proponents of taking on contract work, because it gets you a foot in the door and as you're explaining it can give you an incredible opportunity too, if it's the right match. So Steve, how long did you work in the contract roles before you decided you wanted to move into a more traditional full-time job, and what happened once you made that decision?

Steve Deeble: I knew I wanted to work in a full-time job out of the gate. I'd been working as a contractor.

Carol Fishman Cohen: I mean, not contractor. You mean not a contractor, but hired as an employee. Is that what you're talking about?

Steve Deeble: Right, I wanted to be hired as an employee. Exactly. So I started putting out my feelers for new positions. And one of the things that happened was I started recognizing that, what came to me instead of full-time work was more contracts. And since they were with very prestigious companies, one of them was with the Capital Group, which is…

Carol Fishman Cohen: …My old employer, one of the most wonderful companies ever, and very prestigious.

Steve Deeble: Yes. And, everybody that I talked to was so excited for me that I was gonna get to work there. And, and I was too, it was amazing. After having worked at the Aerospace Corporation and dealing with security, and I was also in addition to being a technical writer, something called the facility security officer, which means I was managing the clearances for all the other employees, I get into the Capital Group and I discover their security, they're managing all these assets. They are protecting them from cyber attacks with technology that I had never seen. I went from there to Thomson Reuters Elite, which is basically software used by the largest law firms in the world.

And the largest law firms in the world do not keep their data in the cloud. That is so security, security, security, security. And I started thinking, that's what I need to focus on. I had previously had expertise in healthcare and in supply chain. But I realize now what I had developed just from the restart of my career, was emphasis on security related issues.

And so I decided that's what I looked for. And son of a gun, if I didn't see a position on LinkedIn, one of the job alerts that I got for technical writing jobs was they were looking for somebody at this company called Gurucul, which is a cybersecurity company that uses artificial intelligence and machine learning to protect people's data.

And, cybersecurity alone is a term that rings a lot of bells. But that combined with artificial intelligence and machine learning, those three all ring bells. And I thought, okay, this is where I need to go. So I applied and I had an interview almost immediately. I had a second interview the next day and they made me an offer.

And it just went that fast. Once I realized where I needed to focus, it just happened.

Carol Fishman Cohen: I think about how you acquired this skill base over time through these different experiences. And then you were able to step back and put together what to call this, and what direction that you were going in. And that is really important, to point out for our audience to think about when you're relaunching, exactly where do you wanna relaunch? What, which skill sets are you extracting from the past that you wanna focus on the future, and what do you call it? So being able to come up with this narrative sounds like it was key to you even figuring out what jobs to apply for.

So let me just take a step back, Steve, and ask you, can you talk about the time period that this was happening over, and especially the times when you felt like you were going through periods of rejection. It sounds like this time before, before getting the current job there, it wasn't very long, but in the past, how did you maintain your mental and emotional health, and going into any detail or not detail depending on what you feel comfortable discussing?

Steve Deeble: Sure. Okay, for one thing, I have been practicing medication for decades. I started sitting with a couple of people up in the mountains where I lived taking care of my dad. They had been Buddhist monks and were, I mean it's full on robed monks in a monastery in Nepal. And they taught me a meditation technique.

And then I subsequently with a friend of mine, went on a retreat. We went on a 10 day meditation retreat that was silent. Yeah. And that was life changing. But to the point, that practice has really helped me. I do it every day. First thing I wake up at 4:45a every day and I sit for a half hour.

The next thing is exercise. I think exercise is critical. The whole mind body thing is absolutely right on. Your mind and your body are not separate. So to help clear your mind, I think it's really important to get some exercise. I'm not a jock. I don't play sports. In fact, I recently realized under COVID why I don't like going to the gym. It's going to the gym part. I love walking in my neighborhood. I love exercising in my neighborhood. I'm the guy that you know, you see with the dumbbells walking and doing upper body exercises every day. That's what I do at lunch. That's what I'm gonna do as soon as you and I are done.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Oh, great!

Steve Deeble: And then I've got to the point now where I'm doing some kind of exercise every day. It's not necessarily hardcore. I'm not trying to build up muscle mass. I am just trying to keep my head clear, and that is the real, that is to me, really effective.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And it sounds like you've figured out ways to exercise that are super easy to access. So like you can walk right out your door and walk in the neighborhood and have some weights with you and you don't have to have a lot of equipment or go to a place to do it.

Steve Deeble: I have bare bones equipment, and that's exactly it. I don't have to go somewhere. The gyms were closed under COVID. And I was a member of a gym. And by the time they reopened, I had already established an exercise practice. One thing I wanna mention too, is that when I was negotiating this position that I have now, they had said they wanted me in the office five days a week. And the offer letter I got, which kind of blew my mind, but they offered me my full ask, but I wanted to be able to work at home at least part of the time, because of what I have established as these routines for my personal self care. I'm gonna call it selfcare. It's not just healthcare. It's self care. And so I had a call with the chief operating officer who I had connected with, initially for the interview.

And I told him, I said, look, I've been working from home for two and a half years and I'm successful. I want to be able to work from home. And so we worked at a deal where I got to work from home part of the time. And at this point it's most of the time. And my friends laugh because the only time I really go into the office is when I have a lunch date.

That's ‘cause I don't need to, I don't need to be in the office. But I'm in a place now where I feel respected. I feel challenged. I feel like I'm contributing something. And that is a way different place than where I was when I was starting that reentry process.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And I just want to emphasize that, because so many of us, when we're in the depths of the prolonged search process and we're getting rejections and we do feel like we lose our sense of value. And that was what you were talking about earlier on. And then there, there was that moment where you worked on that exhibit and you recognized some value and that maybe carried you over.

And then you had these contract roles where you are clearly not only adding value, but learning and growing, like in the process. And then you ended up with this offer, and where you are now and how you're talking about the value that you feel. Yeah. And there's just such an evolution there and it just, it was hard won. And we're talking about it in a very brief period and in like in an abbreviated way, but I not to, I just wanna emphasize that it was hard won. It was a long process. So I didn't know if you had any other comments on that before I wanna ask you the final question that we ask all of our podcast guests right after this.

Steve Deeble: I'm gonna say that one of the key things for me is having a support network. The support network is your friends, your family, and that's primary. One of the things COVID did was cause me to be isolated. And I realized, people are my jam, and what has happened as a result is I reach out to people and I make sure they're okay. Because I realized it was the people that helped me get through this. And I think that's critical that we all help each other in this regard, the way you helped me.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Oh, wow.

Steve Deeble: You gave me time. I know you're a busy person.

Carol Fishman Cohen: That was very meaningful to me too. And you're saying that by reaching out to other people and checking in on them, there's also, it also helps you when it's a two-way street there.

Steve Deeble: Absolutely.

Carol Fishman Cohen: I wanna ask you actually, two more questions. First, is the question we ask all of our podcast guests, which is what is your best piece of advice for our relauncher your audience, even if it's something that we've already talked about today.

Steve Deeble: Okay. So I have a very short bullet list.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Okay.

Steve Deeble: First, don't worry about your age. That is no longer an issue. When I de-agified my resume, and I got that position as a result, that's great. But what's happened since then is I use LinkedIn as my go-to for job search. And the LinkedIn job history requires that you have the dates, if not the entire date, the year and the month.

So that eliminates that ability to de-agify it. But I realize now I don't need to, because what happened in those contracts that I did is I basically replaced three millennials, and I'm not trying to bag on millennials by any means, every generation has its strengths, and it just happens that I was brought in to a situation where they were frustrated with what was happening, and I was able to give them something that the other people weren't. And it doesn't matter if they were millennials or Gen Xers or what have you. Just be the best that you can be for yourself, and don't worry about how old you are. The next thing is, make sure you maintain your contacts, your network. And those are your former colleagues, clients, your supervisors. That's very important, and again, that's one of the things I did on LinkedIn to get this new job is, I went into LinkedIn and I really beefed up my profile with every one of the people I could think of who had said nice things about me in the past. I said, are you willing to say nice things about me on LinkedIn? And that's a hard ask for me, it really is.

The next thing is volunteer. I cannot speak highly enough of how important it is to do something to give back to your community, because what happens is it gives back to you. So that is all, as you said, that is also a two way street.

And then, as I said, finally, LinkedIn, the way that it's set up now is such a powerful tool. I have a keyword search for jobs for technical writer, and I'm still getting them because I know a lot of technical writers and sometimes they're looking for work and I can say, Hey, I just saw six jobs, and they're all remote, or what have you. So that's really what I have as a take away.

Carol Fishman Cohen: That's excellent advice. And thank you for laying it out that way so clearly for everyone. Steve, I just wanted to end by asking you about the monthly storytelling event that you run. How did it start? What is it, and what made you start it?

Steve Deeble: Well, I've been telling stories my whole life, Carol. And, one of the things that happened is I wrote a novel, and there's a store in downtown Long Beach called Made, which is basically merchandise that's all made by local makers, and they carry my book.

Well, the woman that owns the store invited me to tell the story of how I made it. And so I started out by creating a storytelling event that was all about writing and publishing. That led to another one that was about food and community. And so I did a third, well, then they actually created a new space that is a combination bar with a performance space that is really incredible. And they came to me and said, we wanna do a monthly storytelling event, and we would like you to host and curate it. And I said, okay. So we started in 2020, we did January and February and we were killing it and then COVID happened and shut us down.

We restarted four months ago and what's been happening is it's been getting such notice from people in LA that we're getting, are you familiar with The Moth?

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yes.

Steve Deeble: Yeah. Okay. So our last program was largely winners of The Moth story slam competitions.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Oh wow.

Steve Deeble: They're coming down to Long Beach because we have such an awesome venue. And I have now taken on a co-host, co-curator, and she's really tearing it up. It's a lot of fun and I'm now telling stories at other storytelling events. In fact, next week, I'm gonna go try and be on The Moth.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Just for our audience, The Moth, M O T H, look it up and you'll learn all about what The Moth is and what it means for the whole storytelling world.

Steve Deeble: It's The Moth storytelling hour on NPR.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Thank you.

Steve Deeble: You're welcome.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Well, you know, Steve, one of the things that I love about Riveted and the storytelling event, is I can tell how passionate and how excited you are about it, and it's just really fun. It's a really fun thing. And you have this whole separate network of people that you know through storytelling.

And I'm even thinking that some of those people, at some point might end up getting a job opportunity because they knew someone else through the storytelling network, so.

Steve Deeble: You never know where your networks are.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Right, exactly. And that's a really important message.

Steve Deeble: I had a neighbor once and he was a funny guy, he was what I would definitely say was a curmudgeon. But this guy said something to me one day, he said, Steve, in life, you've got to root for everybody. And I thought, you're like the last guy in the world I would expect to hear that from.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah.

Steve Deeble: But that was so profound. And I really took that to heart. Root for everybody.

Carol Fishman Cohen: That's a great way to wrap up here. Steve, thank you so much for joining us.

Steve Deeble: Carol. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And thanks for listening to 3, 2, 1 iRelaunch, the podcast where we discuss return to work strategies, advice, and success stories. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, the CEO and Co-founder of iRelaunch and your host.

I want to remind our listeners who are actively relaunching to make sure to register and upload your resume to our iRelaunch Job Board, because that's where employers go to hire relaunchers for their jobs, career reentry jobs and programs. And be sure to visit iRelaunch.com to access our many return to work tools and resources, and to sign up for our mailing list, so you can receive our weekly Return to Work Report featuring career reentry jobs and programs. Thank you for joining us.