Carol Fishman Cohen: Welcome to 3, 2, 1 iRelaunch, the podcast where we discuss return to work strategies, advice, and success stories. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, CEO and Co-founder of iRelaunch and your host. Today, we welcome Elizabeth Bader. Elizabeth is a team effectiveness coach at Red Hat. Over the course of her career, Elizabeth has taken three career breaks, one to obtain a post-divorce master's degree in organizational leadership, one to start her own company, and one for family care. This year she's celebrating the 22nd anniversary of her first return to work. And in this episode, we will discuss lessons learned by Elizabeth during her career breaks and the importance of professional development.

Elizabeth, welcome to 3, 2, 1 iRelaunch.

Elizabeth Bader: Thank you Carol. So happy to be here with you. I'm a huge fan and I'm looking forward to our conversation today.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Thank you very much. We're really excited to have the conversation too. I feel like you have so much knowledge from your firsthand experiences and now are in a position to look back on them and extract the most important lessons.

Can we start by talking about your career journey earlier on and what led to your first career break?

Elizabeth Bader: Sure. Happy to do that, Carol. First off, I'm going to say I'm on Plan M . Plan A, it was a long time ago in my early twenties and that's 30 years ago. So I would say that the key to the journey is it changes. So Plan A was to be a happy homemaker and stay at home wife and PTA president and all those great things. And that went away and I went to Plan B and I went back to grad school and then I went to Plan C and I started my own company. And then I went to Plan D and went back to corporate.

I've had several jobs since then. So the most important thing about the journey, I think, is being able to be resilient and adapt. And I think we've all been doing that for the last couple of years. So my journey is like everybody else's in that way.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Wow. Let's focus. That's a lot. And I want to focus maybe on your first relaunch first.

And can you talk about the circumstances that led to returning to work and then what were some of those initial steps that you took and how did you figure out what to do.

Elizabeth Bader: Yeah. That actually as you and I have talked about was the most pivotal moment in the transformation of the relaunch, which was the first relaunch.

I had left the workforce as a paralegal in my late twenties and I got married and I had a beautiful son and then my marriage ended and I knew I needed to go back to the workforce. One of the things that was really important to me was that if I wasn't going to be the stay at home mom, that I had thought, achieve the goal that I was looking for, that my work needed to have meaning and have purpose. That if I wasn't going to be home that I couldn't be a cog in the wheel.

I was very fortunate that at the time in California, where I was living, there was a Women's Opportunity Center at the University of California, Irvine. And I was blessed with my mentor coach, who is still my friend today and still my mentor coach today, 30 years later. And, that transition of being able to identify the right next steps with the benefit of a coach and a mentor, like the programs that you offer was really transformational.

I knew I needed to go back to school. That was a decision I had made to relaunch myself because I didn't want to return to being a paralegal. So I needed to reeducate and retool and very often getting an additional degree or certification is a method to set yourself up for that transition. And so I did end up going back to graduate school, to Chapman University in Orange, California, and got my master's in organizational development and leadership.

And with that two year academic journey, I relaunched into organizational development and leadership development and started my career there.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Wow. It's such an interesting journey. I remember you had told me that you were a teacher before you were a paralegal and then you moved and you had this master's degree and moved into a organizational leadership role and there's I'm sure a lot of education and training that is built into the skill set that you need to be successful there. Also just to shout out, so I'm originally from Southern California. I remember the UCI Women's Center. We actually collaborated with them on one of our very earliest conferences that we had in Orange County.

And I know Chapman University. Great to call out those institutions. You got this degree and were you able to start working then because of connections you made through the education experience and through the Women's Center? Or like how did that work?

Elizabeth Bader: Yeah, that's a great question, Carol.

Actually there was a fellow classmate. Her name is. We're still friends today. And she opened the door to Ingram Micro for me. She went to the head of training, Bernard, may he rest in peace, he's no longer with us, but she went to Bernard and she pitched me and I got my first baby trainer's job, back in the day when it was, oh, we still had in-person training.

And my certification was achieved global, which doesn't exist anymore. I think it's been purchased by Korn Ferry or somebody. And it was back in the day when you came into the training room and we handed out workbooks and we said, open your workbook and let's get going. It's evolved a lot since then.

But yeah, so a classmate was, it was critical in that particular time. In other junctures it's been networking, I want to just allude that was a beautiful experience by going through that academic experience. That's not for everybody because that takes time and resources that maybe isn't available to everyone.

But that was one of the gifts of that time.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah, there are so many options now. Not necessarily getting an entirely new degree, but certificate programs and certain courses. And of course COVID has altered that landscape in terms of, you're not as likely to be sitting in the classroom with the other people who are taking the class together.

There are some courses that are in a hybrid format, but there is a networking source there. If you are going through an academic experience with other people, and that could be a single course, it could be a certificate program and it could be online to a certain degree. If you know the other students who are taking it, and tangentially related to that is when people join Toastmasters, a Toastmasters chapter to learn how to be better public speakers.

This is an organization, if people don't know about it, that is global, that has chapters all over the world. It's relatively inexpensive to join, it's about $40 or $50 every six months. And now, although their programs are online, but again, you're with a group of people who you get to know, many of them are, most of them are working.

And you walk into an instant network there as you're all pursuing a similar objective.

Elizabeth Bader: Absolutely Carol and I would also say that along the academic lines, if you have an undergraduate degree, as an alum, you are entitled to support from your institution your end of days. So go back, link with your alumni association, contact your career center from your alma mater.

I even went back to my high school and I made sure that all, my LinkedIn profile, that I was connected with all of my high school friends. And I reached out to a few of them who were in fields or industries that I was interested in. You never know where it could come from. And maximizing that, maximizing your spouse's alumni, maximizing family like, Hey, can you connect me? They're all great ways to build your LinkedIn connections as well as to utilize the services because they have a vested interest in getting you places placed as well.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Fantastic advice. And I'm so glad you mentioned reaching out to alumni career services or your alumni organization, because there are some schools that have very extensive career services for alumni.

It can vary. But I love that advice, Elizabeth. Thank you. So can you, can we just jump to the present for a minute? And can you explain, what do you do as a team effectiveness coach inside a large organization?

Elizabeth Bader: Yeah, it's very exciting, Carol. Thanks so much for asking about it. So as I have, my background is organizational development and leadership, and I also am a certified coach from the Hudson Institute in Santa Barbara which is an ICF accredited program.

And so. Team, we've all been coaching teams, however, team and teaming is really growing up in the sense that it's becoming more of the vanguard thinking of coaching. Coaching individuals is wonderful. However, most of these individuals are sitting on a team. And so if you think about it, most of the work is done in a team environment, which has its own dynamic set of behaviors and competencies and flows and attributes. And so at Red Hat, we were very fortunate. We partnered with sixteens conditions, which is out of Harvard, which Ruth Wakeman. And we got our certifications through their program. And as a team effectiveness coach, it's what I just alluded to.

Not only do we look at the team as an entity, so a compromise know comprised of individuals who bring their own unique persons to the team. We look at the team as a dynamic flowing entity that exists within a larger organizational structure. And so there's a set of conditions that enable a team to really become effective or what we often call high performing.

And so I am a coach, my teammates and my colleagues are we coach. And so we'll work with a team to identify, do they have the foundation. You can't build a house without a great foundation. So do you have the foundational elements to set your team up for success? If you don't have them, we coach them to them. We help them to look at the larger construct.

That's what we do as team effectiveness coaches.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Wow. That's fascinating. Thank you for giving us the detail. I want to jump, we're going to talk about your second relaunch in a little bit, but I want to jump to your third relaunch because we had talked about this previously, that on your third relaunch, it involved you moving to a brand new area of the country where you didn't know anyone.

And we have, relaunchers talk about being in the situation and feeling really challenged by it. And I wanted to know if you could talk to our audience about where did you start? And how did you start and were you, were you in a situation where your network from the other location was not that effective for you, so you essentially had to build something brand new, or how did you approach it?

Elizabeth Bader: Sure. So I left Southern California four years ago for a lot of reasons. And I don't know that I would necessarily recommend moving without a job. Maybe that may be the first bit of advice is try to network before you actually leave.

If you know that you're going to believe you're leaving or you're interested in leaving. Maybe do a little more pre-work than I did. I was a little, okay, I'm outta here, so that might be a little Monday morning quarterbacking, but hey, but nonetheless, I landed in Greensboro, North Carolina where I am now and Carol, I think whether it's people or you don't know people, it's all about networking. I am a huge personal fan of LinkedIn. I'm sure there's other good sites. I haven't had great experience with them and that may be user error. So I don't want to say anything negative about anything else, but I'm just to say LinkedIn has really been the place for me.

Also, joining groups that you can, obviously now with the pandemic, it's been difficult, right? Where you could not go to Rotary or you can't go to Chamber of Commerce or professional associations. But the bottom line or the thread that ties that all together is you have to be willing, to your point earlier, is let people know. And you have to network and have the right elevator pitch. Telling people, hey, I need a job is not networking. Telling people that you're looking for this type of job in this type of industry and being specific is how that helps you. So I was a crazy networker. I would talk to anybody who would talk to me at the gas station when I was pumping gas, at the grocery store when I was checking out, and the most important thing is after I would meet somebody, I'd say, can you recommend two other people for me to connect? Would you be willing to, to make an introduction to one or two other people. Literally I could be having lunch alone at a counter and strike up a conversation with the person next to me.

I was networking and I would ask them for help.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Okay. So I want to dive into that a little bit more. So you're at the lunch counter, you meet someone, two seats over. What exactly do you say? You get into a conversation just about something else, and then it somehow migrates to discussing something that helps you in your job.

Can you just walk us through as if it's a scene by scene and we're watching it on a TV show?

Elizabeth Bader: Sure. First off, if you all haven't figured it out, I'm chatty, right? So you have to be a chatty person. If you're afraid to say hello or make eye contact, then it's, that's a skill you have to work on, that confidence. I've been given the, my father used to say, I'll pay you a penny a minute, I never made 5 cents. So my ability to be quiet is not so great. So anyway usually just, oh, how's your lunch? Or, are you from here? Strike up conversation and it's always, oh what brought you here?

That was always the big question is, really? You left California for Greensboro? Why? Why? A lot of great reasons. And then I would say I picked Greensboro because it's beautiful and it's cost-effective and the quality of life is high and there's no traffic and I would have a lot of good things to say about why, which is true.

I wasn't making them up with why I was here and they said what do you do? Oh, that's a great question, I'm looking for a job. Oh, really? What do you do? The irony is, Carol, Center for Creative Leadership, which is one of the preeminent coaching training organizations in the world happens to be in Greensboro.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Wow.

Elizabeth Bader: So per capita, there are more people like me in Greensboro with the same degrees and skillsets than probably any other place on the planet, which is ironic. So this is the mecca, if you will, of coaches, trainers, O.D. professionals. And so that sort of worked to my advantage because people actually knew my profession.

I didn't have, one out of the things about Greensboro, North Carolina is it's not six degrees of separation. And so a lot of people like, oh, my neighbor's cousin’s sister works at CCL. Oh my blah, blah blah. So a lot of people, Carol, it's really just having, being clear about what you want and having the comfortability of being vulnerable and just saying, yeah, I'm looking for work. Before the pandemic, as we've known is like this whole negative perception of people who have gaps, or why are you out of work? You must be bad commodity. You must be a bruised apple. And I don't have a lot of great things to say about the pandemic, but I hope that this is the permanent transition of that mindset ending, that you can be out of work. You can transition, you can pivot, and those are not perceived. So I think recruiters, I hope, are really coming more forward thinking than historically.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And I'm thinking now, gosh, could I have a conversation like that? But I'm realizing you're new in the area.

So by virtue of being new in the area the automatic, it's like I'm new here. Hi. And then starting the conversation on, is this a restaurant I should be coming to you regularly or, or, and then getting into, as soon as you say, I'm new here, then it starts all the, those other questions and that can direct the conversation around to the job topic.

Okay. So that's interesting and notable for those of us in the audience who get worried that they're in a new place to use the fact that you're in a new place as a way of starting conversations and meeting people.. Even if you're not so chatty and comfortable talking all the time. Yes. Okay, so that's really helpful.

So you started on these conversations and then what happened next? Like how did things get to another level where you're actually, meeting people who work at places who might hire you.

Elizabeth Bader: Yeah, absolutely. I said earlier, I always, whenever I would connect with someone, I would always ask and I think this is in my opinion, you know, good networking. Are there one or two other people that you think I should meet, you think I should talk to? So then and then the second question is, are you willing to make an may I use your name or are you willing to make an introduction on my behalf? And many people are willing to do that quick email.

Hey, I had lunch with Elizabeth or I met Elizabeth and she's great. I think you might be a great person for her to chat with. Or I would send the email, Hey, I had lunch with Carol, she recommended that I connect with you and I would cc: you just so that they would know that it was legit in case you wanted to chime in, but also so that they knew you were watching so that maybe they wouldn't blow me off.

And so I had a lot of those and I'll be honest, Carol, a lot of them came to nothing and then you have to be prepared for that. You have to, that lovely to meet you, have a nice day. Okay. I can never get those 20 minutes back. But all it takes, all it takes is that one person.

And I met that one person. His name was Gary, and he was willing to make an introduction on my behalf. And I got that first role and I knew it was a temporary role. It was outside of my job scale. It was about a third of the salary. There's also a theory, which I guess at some point, maybe you, sometimes it's better to be working than not working, even if it's below pay and below.

And I know there's controversy about that. But I took the job because I thought it would be a good networking opportunity for me to become more a part of the community I had just moved into. And from there, I met a colleague who then became an advocate and a champion, Nicole, and then Nicole made the next referral, which was to Mercy and then Mercy made the next referral.

And so it took me a few contract, temporary roles too, before I finally landed that permanent, full-time position, but I was willing to do those things because. And it's hard to be alone all day. It's hard to job search all day, right? It's a black hole of time and energy. So having these contract temporary roles gave me some income and gave me connections, which then parlayed me into each of the next roles.

So I think that might be part of it. I don't know what your thought is on sometimes taking lesser than roles. I know there's some controversy about

Carol Fishman Cohen: Let's talk about that. First of all, before we get into that, the comment that you made about a lot of these conversations came to nothing. So we tell people upfront, expect to have lots and lots of conversations that don't go anywhere.

That's just part of the process, but you have to have a lot of them to yield the few that make a difference. So that's why you have to persevere after, that was a waste of time, that was a waste of time, that's not going where you have to keep doing it, as you're saying, pick up the phone again or run into that person.

And how is that conversation. So really important messaging there. The other thing that, that I'm really I'm appreciating here is, is your embracing of contract and temporary work, because first of all, you're, you are making you're in a contract role. It has a beginning and an end. So it's not as though you're taking another job and then I'm feeling like I'm just out of here, as soon as I find something better. It's, you are intentionally taking a series of contract roles.

You get experience, you have current work experience on your resume. As you're saying, you meet people. We're huge proponent of temporary and contract roles as taking steps in a relaunch and you are a perfect illustration. Your experience perfect illustration of why that works.

Okay. So I want to also talk about something else I noticed when I was looking at your background, your profile, you have really invested and dove into professional development and certifications. And I wanted to know why you did that, how you chose what you chose, and how it's helped you along the way.

Elizabeth Bader: So as we talked about what I went and got my original master's degree, which really was the significant, transitional, transformational, pivotal, you know, cornerstone of my reinvention of me as Elizabeth as a person, as a human being, as a professional, because getting a degree in organizational development and leadership, which probably is not unlike getting a psychology degree, it mines your soul, right? Because you're dealing about the human experience in organizations. And so how we each show up as a human being in the construct of, and that's why you'll see on my LinkedIn profile, my tagline is I do believe organizations can be places of great human experience because most of us spend most of our days there and across the board, most of us are interacting more than places of worship, more than academic institutions, more than in our communities. The majority of people have at least one person in their home who is interacting in some organization. So that was super transformational for me to get my degree. I chose it because I like school.

I also had the time and resources to be able to go back to school. That was a gift that was given to me at that time. And I realized that's hard for everyone. Like that, that may not be a financial or time allotment that they can make. I also choose chose to get my coaching certification because I knew that I wanted to ultimately move into a coach and it was setting me up for my business.

That I ultimately launched because I wanted to start coaching divorce parents and co-parenting, and I needed that skillset that I didn't have. And so that was important to me. Also just in organizations, just as I just completed 16 conditions at Red Hat, many organizations in my field, you have to get certifications, right?

So you have to get certified and achieve global to teach, achieve global. You have to get certified and DDI in order to teach it. So that's part and parcel of my professional development. That's given within organizations. Outside of the organization, there are so, as you alluded to, there is so much content on the internet now, and so many people are offering, through, through colleges and universities, they have certificate programs. I took one at Cornell during the pandemic just to keep my mind engaged. And so I think that certificate programs are now much more acceptable or respected than they had been historically as where you really needed that formal quote unquote collegiate education.

I don't think that's true anymore. And I think that you can get it in a lot of great places at a lot of different price points from ridiculously expensive to very cost-effective. I will say, as I researched different things, make sure certification programs are accredited through professional, make sure that they're legit, right?

If you go look at a coaching program, make sure it's an ICF accredited program. Because then you've known that program has gone through some rigor and it will be accepted into the ICF. If you go for that for accreditation or that you can put that on your resume and say to your prospective employers, I went to a rigorous, credited program.

And I would say that any other certificate programs, make sure they're governed by some professional, there are SHRM or whatever your field professional engineering association is, whatever you're pursuing.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Excellent. And you mentioned your entrepreneurial experience and I want to know if you can talk to us a little bit about how you knew the timing was right to start that venture. What happened as you developed it and then ultimately you ended up closing it and how did you make that decision?

Elizabeth Bader: As I was, I'm a co-parent through divorce and one of the, so I'm a big because I'm a lifelong learner or continuous learner, however you want to phrase that. And I read a tremendous amount of books about co-parenting. My son was only 18 months when I got divorced. So I knew I had a very long road. One of the other things that I observed was that when you do your co-parenting documents, they were at the time of the divorce. So my son was 18 months.

He was a baby boy with a diaper bag. Within six months, within 12 months, he was a boy with a bat and a ball and a pat and a this and a that. And then he was going to be starting school and, equipment, athletic equipment. Different things. And as they age, then there's retainers and then there's computers and then there's bikes.

And not every family can have two bikes at each, a bike at each house or, different things and navigating all that. And when I looked at the divorce workshops, none of them, they were all about the divorce recovery. None of them were specifically geared towards how do you co-parent and how do you manage.

Because again, like the divorce documents weren't elastic, they were a very finite snapshot of that date and time. But yet these two people who already clearly have communication issues who already have potentially high conflict, how are they going to navigate all these incremental developmental changes for their children, for their child?

And so I said, I'm a trainer. I understand instructional design. I'm a co-parent and there is nothing more powerful than an authentic story, right? When we tell our personal story, that is when we are most impactful on others. So I was traveling a lot for work. So I was very depressed. I would call my ex-husband and cry into the phone that I didn't want to be in the hotel that I was in, as lovely as it was, that I wanted to be home, even though my son was safe and he was with his father and I was lucky that way, it wasn't where I wanted to be.

So I wanted off the road. And so that I said then I need to have control over me. And I'm a subject matter expert. I am a co-parent and I am doing this and I am a trainer and I can teach other people to do this. And so I hired an instructional designer and I have a beautiful curriculum and I started speaking and networking with attorneys and with the family court.

And, Carol, 50% of the population in Orange County was divorced. 50% of that population had children say under the age of 15 living in their home. I thought I had a ready market. I did have a ready market, and I underestimated a couple of really important things. One, divorce attorneys had no interest in partnering with me because I took, they, that's not how they make money.

They make money because you fight over the hammer or you fight over the things, they didn't want to work with me. And the collaborative, there is a movement within divorce called collaborative law, but it hadn't really gotten a lot of traction back when I was doing this, although I was partnering with them and working with them.

I also didn't invent. I didn't, I underestimated, that single parents feel trapped for time and money, which is true. And sometimes they are however, paying a lawyer $400 an hour versus paying me $75 or a hundred seemed like a good, but couldn't make that connection. And the third thing I underestimated was people are very invested in their story and especially I wouldn't be the raving lunatic crazy parent I am if my ex spouse wasn't this horrible human being. And they were very invested in that dynamic versus saying, if I change the tune of the dance, if I change the steps of our dynamic, I can put my child's best interests first and maybe deescalate. So unfortunately, as wonderful as my product was, which I thought it was wonderful.

And as well-received, as it was and successful, I couldn't get the traction that I needed to make the living I needed to make. And ultimately had to say, this isn't going to be the financial, ID to support me. I wasn't doing it out of, it was the goodness of my heart and I needed it to be the financial support that I needed as a, an income earner.

And I fought for it for 13 years. I fought for very long time. And finally just, it's in a box, and just needed to go back to work because it just, it wasn't working.

Carol Fishman Cohen: I so appreciate you walking us through that whole process because we've talked about this in a couple of our other podcasts, but this idea of the realities of entrepreneurship versus this romanticizing the concept of it, especially in terms of cashflow and you have to expect there's going to be a period of very minimal cashflow or even negative cashflow because you're investing. And then it might come back to, you might start earning, but maybe it's very lumpy and unpredictable and all of these elements have to be in place. And gosh, I'm listening to you talk about this incredible product and how well thought it was and how you present it. I can feel it and I can see it. And that must've been a really tough decision.

Elizabeth Bader: Yeah, it was heartbreaking. And sometimes it, it perks its head up because I still think I'm the only voice. And I wonder, I'm the only moment the product that I have with the mindset that I have with the way that I deliver it. And now the internet is a totally different thing than it was, I could start doing Tik Tok or podcasts or different things. And it sits in the back of my head.

Because I know that I have something to offer in this. I am a subject matter expert in this particular area. And I was successful when I was able to actually deliver on the product. But to your point, being the chef, the cook and the bottle washer is not for everyone. You have to market and sell and deliver.

And I think people think it's glamorous, and it's not, or it can be, but it's harder than people think. So, but I'm glad that I did it. I think, I'll never look back and say what it could have should have or what might've been. And I'm proud of what I did. And if I helped one person, then it was worth the time, effort and energy that I put in. And I know that I helped more than one person.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah. And, the comment that you made about not only are you subject matter expert in it, but you went through this process yourself. I have the same kind of connection with all the relaunchers in our community. I'm a relauncher. I went through every phase of the process of relaunching my career and getting hired. And I know how it feels in every step. And I think that authentic connection is very powerful and I feel directly connected to our relaunchers in our community because of it. So I'm glad you highlighted that.

Elizabeth, we've covered so much today and I really appreciate how generous you've been in, in everything that you shared. As we're wrapping up, I want to go to the question that we ask all of our podcasts, guests. And that is what is your best piece of advice for our relauncher audience, even if it's something that we've already talked about today.

Elizabeth Bader: Sure and I thought about this before we chatted today. And two things are like 1.a, and 1.a for me, it's number one, ask for help. Do not go alone, do not. There's no reason to do it, there are so many support systems and accountability buddies, and women's opportunity centers, men's opportunity centers, church groups, anything. Anywhere where you can get that job support, like iRelaunch, right? Like I wish I had known about you. I think I've told you I'm so heartbroken that I hadn't found you sooner because I did all of this on my own.

And the second part I would say is trust the process, trust the journey. It's hard, it's lonely. It requires resilience, it requires tenacity. And if you're already out there, then you already have some of those skills not to let it beat you down. And just believe in yourself and know that the right thing will come. And it took me like, sometimes it took me years to get to the right thing. It took me almost three years of being in Greensboro before I landed at Red Hat, which is now my professional home. I went through a series of temporary and contract and false starts and thinking I'd gotten there. And then I found that I hadn't. So I would say, ask for help, and be as resilient as you can be. And it's okay to have a good boo-hoo every once in a while. And then you gotta dust yourself off and keep on going.

Carol Fishman Cohen: That's such great advice and also acknowledging the timing. Yeah. And that is a big piece of why these qualities are so important.

Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining us today.

Elizabeth Bader: Oh, thank you, Carol. This was a delight.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And thanks for listening to 3, 2, 1 iRelaunch, the podcast where we discuss return to work strategies, advice, and success stories. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, the CEO, and Co-founder of iRelaunch and your host. For more information on iRelaunch conferences and events, to sign up for our job board and access our return to work tools and resources, go to irelaunch.com. And if you liked this podcast, be sure to rate it on Apple Podcasts and your favorite podcast platform, and be sure to share this podcast with a friend on Facebook, Instagram, and other social media. Thanks for joining us.