Carol Fishman Cohen: Welcome to 3, 2, I iRelaunch the podcast where we discuss return to work strategies, advice, and success stories. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, CEO and co-founder of iRelaunch and your host. Today, I'm delighted to welcome my friend and Lean In and leader colleague Nuala Murphy described by the Irish times as one of the next generation of female business leaders in the north.

Nuala Murphy is a multi award winning professional marketer and entrepreneur and a community builder and connector by nature. As a marketer, she has worked with some of Northern Ireland's most successful companies, internationally selling and marketing products, services, and technology across many industries for over 15 years.

Nuala little was out of the workplace for seven years before recently taking her current position. And we're going to talk about that. As president of the Lean In network in Belfast Nuala has led and scaled the Lean In movement across Ireland over the past nearly eight years as interim Head of Business at Diversity Mark.

Nuala is channeling her expertise, leadership, and passion into building a more equal and inclusive society working with companies from all sectors across Ireland and the UK. Nuala welcome to 3, 2, 1 iRelaunch.

Nuala Murphy: Carol I'm so delighted to be here. Thanks for having me.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Well, it's really, I know it's fun for both of us to be sitting here and across the airwaves and having this conversation.

I want to know if we can start by asking you to tell us a bit about your career path and maybe the career path that led up to the point where you took your career break and then a little bit about what happened during the career break.

Nuala Murphy: Yeah, absolutely Carol and I think it's all connected, took a while to work like the thread, but it's all connected.

So I started working after my degree and at that stage, I'd spent a lot of time, my degree. So when I came back after graduating, I joined a graduate training program, like a lot of graduates do here in Northern Ireland. And part of that was to join. So when I went through the testing, the personality testing, it told me because I'm good at communicating and good talking with people.

And very much a people person that I would be well suited to industry and to commercials and sales. So I was pleased with one of Northern Ireland, one of our leading manufacturer companies to look at and drive their sales and export growth because I had languages as part of my applied language and linguistics degree undergrad.

And that journey led me to Paris of all places to open an office, run operations, drive the European sales, artist Paris, and like 22. And I think that when I reflect back on this. I took it all in my stride at the time. And it's always really good to remember the stuff that you've done. So anyway, that's where my first kind of step in career started.

I love the export. I loved customers talking to them, explaining product, understanding their needs and wants, and communicating that back to head office, negotiating sales, contracts loved it all. And it took me to very, so many wonderful places, selling sanitary bins to large healthcare organizations, Axminster carpet to big hotels, I also had the opportunity to start get finding my interest in technology and high that enabled. So at a high technology enables products to be above the rest when it comes to health care and hygiene also, then when it came to the manufacturing process of Axminster carpet, for example, I spent a lot of time and Ulster carpets, understanding how technology helped them.

And then from there I moved into healthcare, which is where I really find my home for a good traunch of my career. So bringing automatic external defibrillators to the lay person in businesses, in community groups. And then from there, I went into software technology with a company called total mobile.

That was very much a byte, workplace solutions for local government and then bringing that product into healthcare. So again, high does technology solve the problems of the people that need it and to that's where my commercial experience, my export experience, a lot of my skills were harnessed and at the same time, I really wanted to understand the science behind that. So not just seals, not just commercials, but I could I enable more and be better for the customers and people that we served. And then that probably brought me up to a stage in my career where I was in a technology company. I was doing great work when it came to healthcare and mobile working solutions.

And I also was afforded the opportunity to do some pro bono work with brain injury matters and also with addiction people with addiction and how they get access to help and information. And that I think was a real pivotal moment for me because it inspired Dan my own entrepreneurial journey when I left the workplace and on my first maternity leave, I've returned to go back, but then I knew there was just something not right for me.

And we can talk a bit more about that impact and how it led down one track with my volunteer experience with Lean In. But when I look at my career how did it guide me on my entrepreneurial journey, it helped me understand how technology could sell, serve as an early intervention piece, when it came to women, having babies and identifying when they weren't well. When they weren't feeling right.

Where they could get help. How they could keep on top of their mental health and also be part of the community. So that led me to my entrepreneurial journey, which was a wonderful experience, a really tough experience where I find ed a company and a product that was focused on early intervention pearing mental health issues.

I had an idea. I took it from my (inaudible). I built the product with key stakeholders, designed the product with (inaudible) survivors, got everybody involved in that process to make sure that we were building a product that would help women and their families. And at the same time, I raised money in order to build up product the way I got early stage investment to get it built and to get it launched and did some great work, but I got the certain stage when I couldn't scale it, which again, inspired another project of mine further down the line and had to come to the decision to wrap that company up because I couldn't finance it gone further. But what I take from that was I was able to help over 10,000 women, probably more understand where they were at to get help if they needed it, have the support and security to know that they weren't going mad. They were suffering from an illness and where they could get help. And the journey to there, the skills I learned through my commercials, through my selling carpets and selling sanitary bins and selling software products helped me get that and have that experience.

And then the people I met in my entrepreneurial journey while that also has led to where I am today, which is that diversity mark on independent awarding authority on diversity and inclusion in the workplace. So no science, very lovely. Doesn't it?

Carol Fishman Cohen: Quite a journey, quite amazing.

And with so many different components, I will talk about the the Lean In piece in a minute, because that was substantial, such a huge body of work in itself. But I also am interested in hearing how you describe the formation of your idea and how the company progressed.

And then probably what was a very difficult decision to close the company. We do have Relaunchers in our audience who have started entrepreneurial ventures and whose entrepreneurial ventures did not move forward and they had to close their ventures also. And a question that often comes up when we're having conversations with employers that run return to work programs, is, would a quote failed entrepreneurial venture be considered a some negative experience as far as candidacy for return to work program. And the answer is always the opposite. The what you learn from an entrepreneurial venture even if you need to close, it is so significant and they really value that experience and feel that it can make you even more qualified when you relaunch your career.

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts about that having gone through that process yourself directly.

Nuala Murphy: Yeah for the audience here, listening and those who have started and tried to succeed realized most likely on analysis that this isn't, a startup journey is all about determining and defining a repeatable, scalable business model.

So if you come to your stage, which is what I came to with orders for a new solution that this isn't repeatable and if it's not repeatable, it's not scalable. So yes, I could prolong this journey for another six months, but that's not going to get me to where I wanted to get to and where I needed to get to for the product and the company to scale and grow and be a business then a proper business. So when it comes to going back into the workplace, you know what you've described there, it's very similar to what I've had conversations around. Some people, some organizations, some leaders may not see it as a positive thing, but actually the majority of those who understand the learnings that individuals are mass through starting a company, take an idea from concept working with key stakeholders to define that concept.

Fundraising to bring a product together, describing a product, defining a product, giving the brief to developers, communications people, your small team, doing all of that with very little budget. For any amount of time is incredible. I see it as something as a huge learning, I did get some feedback sometimes where people felt, oh, I think the piece of a business coming from an entrepreneurial into a big corporation might be difficult. How would you manage that?

Carol Fishman Cohen: How did you answer that question when they, so they're questioning whether having been an entrepreneur and making some assumptions about entrepreneurs and how they like to work, they're saying, how can you transition into a corporate environment after having that entrepreneurial experience?

Can I ask you how you answered that question?

Nuala Murphy: That question says more about the person asking it, than the person on the other side of the table. And for me, I think it's all about the flexibility and understanding the people you're working with, understanding the goals of the project that you have to deliver against or late, and being able to pull examples of how you've had to do that with limited resource unlimited budget.

So that's how I answered it. And that often was met with okay. Because I think we have we have an impression of an entrepreneur that they're living the life of Riley, as we say here, but actually we don't all wear hoodies. We do get up very early. We dedicate 24/ 7 to the idea and the business plan and the team and the work that we're trying to do that we're probably one of the most driven type of candidate, a big organization can get inside, entrepreneur, intrepreneur we know that big businesses need diversity of thought. We know they need challenge and conversation and that I think were your audience and the people in your community who are on this journey, you need to own it and be confident.

And you're not a failure. In fact, you've had an MBA with having to pay $50,000. Do you achieve it? And so it's always about transferable skills and it took me a while Carol though to get. I didn't think like that from the start.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Let's talk about a couple of things. First of all. I love entrepreneur intrepreneur and talking about how those skills can be very effective inside a more traditional corporate environment.

Also the use of the word failure. I was actually quoting the Relaunchers who asked us this question. They use the word failure and it sounding to me like you're saying that needs to be rebranded and we don't talk about it as a failure. We use different language. And I'm wondering how you talked about the time when you had to make the decision to close the business.

Nuala Murphy: Yeah. So it was really tough. I became pretty stressed. I felt that I was being scrappy with regards to how I was looking at, I was looking short-term put it that way. And I was thinking how am I going to get this over the line? How can I make this work? But equally one side of my head, I was telling myself, but Nuala that an entrepreneurial journey, a startup journey is a by defining a repeatable, scalable business model.

It's not about success and failure for the first five years. That is your only job. And if you don't do that, then that's just part of the process. And so I think that's what we forget. We cheers a lot of headlines. We cheers a lot of what we think success looks like. Whereas if you look at the successful companies in the paper, in the news and across all the publications have been around for a long time and it's always the overnight success. But technically it takes us 10 years to get there. There's a role in how we talk about that. And I think it's also very much aligned with what the entrepreneurs look like. What do we see as an entrepreneur and what those behaviors have been defined us but now we're seeing more different entrepreneurs.

We're not seeing entrepreneurial journeys as a certain amount of privilege. Like you have to be able to take a break out of a career, a break out of financial security. And in order to do that, you need to have backup plans or backup resources to make that happen. So that is a privilege, but we need to recognize that.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yes. Let me just comment on that. I'm so glad you bring this up because I get most worried about Relaunchers or people who are working or Relaunchers who are thinking about I'm going to relaunch by starting my own company. So people who are working, I'm always like don't quit your main job, do this on the side for a while.

And the Relaunchers I say. What you're saying, be prepared for an extended period of time where you have no income coming in or it's even negative income, you have to invest. And you're right. It is a privilege to be able to be in a position to launch a business and to have enough financial security that you can ride through those early years when you're not having cash flow. So thank you.

Nuala Murphy: Carol. I am very careful about how I communicated about this because when I was starting to do it, I'd left the workplace that we'll maybe talk about later, but I started my own marketing firm, consulting and marketing with businesses and the money I was earning, there was some was going to build. Some was going to the early stages of my idea and at the same time applying for grant funding. And it came to the stage when I was then getting a chunk of money that I couldn't have a job. I had to invest all of my time in which again is a bit of an older way of thinking.

Reflecting. Maybe I could have done more and had a job, had the financial safety and security there. But I was lucky, not lucky, I managed it well at home that we knew that I needed to have a certain amount of money in the bank in order to be able to go off and do this until I was able to get a salary from it.

And so it's really important to remember that if we don't hear enough of the backgrounds of the entrepreneurs. A lot when you do a deep dive, you see that if you see that they are either they have the safety security or they have networks with people who are connected to capital who can help them.

And, it's that whole advocacy network access to finance access to capital that we don't see. I am very careful with how I talk about my journey. It was a privilege I learned a lot. I know, and I'm very grateful that we could do it with regards to my background and the support I have at home and through my wider family.

But it's a big consideration. So my advice on not would be, do what you can with as little as you have before you take the jump. And that could be a couple of years, but if we look at success takes five to 10 years. So don't be rushing it, Carol, you know yourself.

Carol Fishman Cohen: I know firsthand.

I want to take this conversation and ask you to apply what you were describing in terms of building your entrepreneurial venture. And can you apply it to how you found Lean In Belfast because as you were going through all these stages, I thought I bet a very similar skillset and process was used to found Lean In Belfast.

I want to know if you can take us through that and the history.

Nuala Murphy: Yeah, absolutely. So if you remember, I've talked about my journey and how I moved, probably typically every three years, because in commercials and marketing, you need to be moving and small businesses to keep going and keep fresh.

When I got to one stage, it was the stage that I was starting a family. So I came against I suppose I got married and then we didn't have children for a few years. We didn't want to have to, we weren't, we were traveling, enjoying, getting to know each other. So the bias I would have everyone was waiting for you to announce pregnancy to them, and you don't announce your pregnancy, then they're starting to give you fertility cards.

Maybe you need to talk to someone and, I say that lightheartedly, but that's the reality of it. So when I finally was pregnant. I remember telling my boss and crying because I was so afraid of that was me and my career my ambitions and aspirations over because of the expectations or the judgements or what people thought I should be doing versus what I thought I wanted to. I'm one of five children.

Both of my parents are professionals. My mom worked when she had all of us, she was back to work within 12 weeks similar, and that was nothing. Now we have much more indulgent maternity's here in comparison to the US so why could I not have a career? Why could I not work and to have a family and be ambitious?

But the ambition was perceived as choosing ambition over family and children. Whereas for me, my children, my family life was my business. So at the time a friend gave me this book and said, I think you'll love this. And I thought, okay. And I wouldn't be the biggest reader Carol, I'm a listener.

And I wouldn't be a big reader because I just don't have the time. But these types of books I do read. So she said, you'll love this. And it was Lean In and I read it and I was really pregnant. And the first couple of pages talk about how Cheryl was ill and the parking and I thought oh my goodness all of these things I've been experienced and I felt were all me that I'm the problem. I shouldn't be ambitious. I shouldn't be wanting this, that, and the other at the time I wanted to do an MBA and a goal I haven't achieved jet but I shared that with you a few years ago, it's still in the roadmap.

And then at the end it said, start a circle. And I thought, wow, I'm going to start a circle. So I mentioned it, I was really very often the only woman in the room. And I mentioned it to somebody who was in a meeting with me and she said, oh, I'd love to be part of a circle.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Let's just explain for the audience for a minute.

What a Lean In circle is.

Nuala Murphy: Yeah. So the Lean In circle is a group of peers who come together to connect and share and support each other to achieve their goals and ambitions, whatever they are. Okay. So I started a Lean In Belfast circle because I didn't have an outside network. I always worked in heist and I kept my kind of work life and work and my home life at home. So this was a big stretch and I thought, okay, who am I going to invite? And I met someone in a meeting and she said, I'd love to be up for that. She was also having a child, somebody else who doesn't have children but was experiencing in some of the themes that were expressed in Lean In.

So we ha we planned our first meeting and I remember sending the email and being so nervous. Have I called this right? Is anyone going to show up? And four people did show up and from those four. Then the next time 10, then the next time 20 and the first year we were undergoing let's say, and then we started getting people at early to mid stage career getting interested and they worked for big companies and they started inviting us and hosting sandwiches and coffees.

And that's how it started. That's how it grew. The rest is history so to say.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah. Can you talk about how big Lean In Belfast is now because you started it in almost 10 years, like 2013 or something? Was that the right year?

Nuala Murphy: Yes. Well I read the book in 2013 and probably got the first columns out for the first circle meeting in 2013. Yes, that was really early. And I remember dealer talking with HQ and telling them about what I was doing. And from there the first year, because my background is in marketing. I know pretty easily hired as to get news like there and what you need to do in the leavers need to pull, but we didn't want to do that.

We wanted this to be a word of mouth. So people felt safe and secure to come and join and share. There's operating guidelines on the confidentiality, the CFD that everybody can share openly. We did that for a year and then it got to a hundred people and I was invited to be part of a regional leaders program.

And from there you got lots of support and resource, and then we started to build out a...

Carol Fishman Cohen: You mean a Lean In regional leaders program to support.

Nuala Murphy: Yeah, Lean In regional leaders program. So we got a Facebook page. We got on Twitter. People wanted to join us. We got a lot of shout outs to the stuff we done, under ground and slowly but surely lots of people started getting involved and we got a lot of interest and companies who wanted to support our efforts.

We were self-organized, we were community leaders and we were campaigning for gender equality in the workplace. But by default, we were all also campaigning for any underrepresented voice to be heard. And that's what we set out to do. And then we ended up I formed a leadership team in Belfast, and then that grew, I met Brita Makivik online and we formed the Lean In Dublin chapter.

And then across Ireland, I think there's well over 3000 members. There must be over 200 leaders circle leaders now where everybody is just being enabled to start their own circle, build their peer support groups, support each other, achieve their goals, whatever they are. And then we come together regularly every year and big industry events to a nigh.

Actually, we've all grown through different rules and companies and orgs that it's a different dimension. So we're handing back and passing back and advocating for others who are coming up the ranks and what an experience, that's why we met. And it really helped me develop leadership skills that I didn't know I had, which is where voluntary work can really help anybody wanting to relaunch a career. Especially if it's aligned with your purpose and your values and you create the boundaries around the time you dedicate to it. It's a really wonderful opportunity to do that. And I've been afforded opportunities that would never have been.

Carol Fishman Cohen: We did meet it just to clarify for the audience that Nuala and I met at a Lean In leaders conference that was run by the Lean In organization. And that we had been to several times because at iRelaunch we worked on establishing the Lean In return to work community. And so that's how we first met.

But when you're talking about this process, it's so entrepreneurial. You were building something that didn't exist before and you built it to some scale and it's operating on a whole different level now. The very modest beginnings when you first had that circle. So much of what you're talking about, the skill sets are the same kind of skill sets that people get paid for to build something within an organization or on their own.

So very fascinating. And then I also have a note here that you, in 2020, you co-founded the women's investor ready project. And I want to know if you could tell us a little bit about that.

Nuala Murphy: Yeah, absolutely. So again, you've hit the nail on the head having reflected on what I've done on the different projects I've worked in.

I've always been inspired by something that was missing. So moment health was a tool that was afforded to everyone for early intervention. Lean In Belfast was a network that was for women who were working in and wanted support and peer support to achieve their goals. And the women's investor ready project was one that first of all, it was founded by myself and three other entrepreneurs who are at different stages of an entrepreneurial journey.

One was an accident finder, a huge. Famous Vick, Tom Bronco, Vito liberata Alison Hogue, wonderful woman. Granja Kelly is currently CEO of bubble Bama inflatable car seat company. So sales everywhere in the word. Lisa struck two as a Harvard affiliated executive coaches has, have had many different entrepreneur.

Johnny and myself, and we met at an event that was talking about entrepreneurship and women. And when you're working in the equality space and you're talking about gender equality until women have a third of the global wealth, we're not going to have any equality. But when it comes to entrepreneurship, we know 2% of venture funding goes to.

That is the stop. We are dealing with 2% every year, and it's got worse since the pandemic, but regionally in Northern Ireland or in Ireland, there wasn't any data on a regional level. So we're always referring other regions. And because you're, it's not your own region. People don't really listen. So the four of us entrepreneurs with different levels and expertise got together and said, why don't we do it regionally here for a place that we love?

We know there's a lot of amazing women. Why don't we help the ecosystem with information, with evidence to change? It was a purely altruistic project that kept us all seen. And so we did that. We surveyed women entrepreneurs, female finders. We understood their challenges. Don't get me wrong.

There's a lot of consistency with the global reports, but we had it locally and we had some anecdotal stories to support the data. And what we have find Carol with that is of the people we brought together in a truly collaborative sense who maybe technically, sometimes compete for funding in a small pond.

Everybody was like, we want to support you. We want to be involved. They attended meetings, they brought their experience. But more than that is, they talked about what we were trying to achieve and we had the conversation. And so they were then informed. So when their day to day they had information maybe we should think about this and slowly but surely we've seen different projects popped out of some of the brilliant partners we have. That they've used our data and our research in order to have the conversation. So for us, that was a huge win. And that was a really, it was a really great project beyond because it was just it again was enabling through communication education.

Some solutions and I find my niche. It's either getting something started off the grind, operationalize it, and then find solutions through collaboration. I find my journey. I think I find my flow. I just need finesse to bit maybe.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Certainly, there is a pattern there and also a pattern of success.

It's really exciting. I wanted a new law. I wanted to talk about the role that you have now, because in July you started working with diversity mark as the interim head of business. And I want to know, how did that happen? How did you end up getting that?

Nuala Murphy: Again, that is the power of your network, the power of your volunteer experience and the power of you valuing that experience.

So for me, this rule was advertised. Christine White, the Head of Business is on maternity leave for 14 months. And so that is long enough time to bring somebody in an interim capacity. So in my Lean In circle that I'm part of the role was shared and I saw it before I'd invested in myself for coaching and I revisited it after.

So before I discounted it, because I don't have experience in that, I've never worked in diversity and inclusion. That's not the salary scale that I would want. That's not for me. And then I did some work and invested in myself. And the role came to me through another contact of somebody I'd met through twerps.

Have you considered this, look at all your experience, look at what you've done. This seems totally for you. Why would you not go for it and post and investing in my own coaching and deep diving into my values. My mission what's important to me. It ticked every single box Carol. And I applied, I sent my email, my cover letter, my CV, and I got an interview.

And then I got the job and, because it's when you're a community activist, like I was with Lean In and you're on the outside. You can get frustrated, you can get frustrated with the slowness of things changing. Okay. Which is an entrepreneurial. When you're on the inside of an awarding body and great companies doing great work, fantastic leaders, visionary leaders, wanting to bring their culture on wanting to be better.

Then you're encouraged to see that change can happen. And it's about being in the right place to deploy your skills, experience and expertise to make it happen. And that's where I feel I am right now. So a lot of the work I did with Lean In the data, the research, the trainings, the key stakeholder engagements, the big industry events, where we were talking and hosting fireside chats and negotiating, discussions around gender equality, equal pay women in the workplace.

I just feel right now that I have landed in a spot and had the chance to take a risk, to work in an area that I've never worked before, but I have worked in it for eight years. I've just not been paid for it. And this is the point of voluntary work so long it's aligned and it's with intention and you're, it's an area you want.

I think that it is work on it is experience and it should be considered that. And I was very lucky in this role that it was, it actually was. I walked the walk and I remember when I was a kid and it reminded me when I was a kid, I was part of a music school. And the leader, the head of that music school was a woman called Daphne Bell.

And she said to me, I remember I joined and I was seven. And she said, always have charity work on your CV. I was seven. Right? What does that mean? Then you're in secondary school or grammar school. Have you got any charity work? Are you doing any charity work and fast forward to now, that's voluntary work. Get extra skills as a volunteer that give you the experience and the opportunity and the access to networks and the access to knowledge and learning that you can bring into your role.

And so I do feel very lucky that I have been afforded that opportunity in a volunteer role, and then I'm able to work in that space. And still learn learning every day.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah. And the idea that this job came from a more distant contact initially, it sounds like, but the networking that sometimes people feel is so awkward and hard, your networking came naturally because it was a by-product of all the volunteer work that you were doing.

So that's very significant and also this idea of not downplaying, but almost the opposite, especially in a situation where you have a skillset or a functional area or an industry that is working as a volunteer that is directly relevant to the paid role that you're applying for it.

So really powerful example, there Nuala thank you so much. And I have so much more to talk to you about, but we're coming to the end of our podcast recording time. So I wanted to ask you the question that we ask all of our podcasts, guests, and that is what is your best piece of advice for our relauncher audience? Even if it's something that we've already talked about today.

Nuala Murphy: First and foremost, you have value, and the best thing that you can do is to recognize your value. Because once you recognize it, other people will recognize it. And it's only through really doing that for myself, that I can say there's a light bulb moment and things change.

So if you can recognize the value you have, you might've been out of work for awhile, you might've had a failed entrepreneurial journey or business, but what have you learned in that? And also go and revisit things that you've done. Gearing up for today, I was thinking about what I did when I opened an office in Paris and I led sales functions, and I took it in my stride, but we've all done stuff as our 22 year old selves that we would probably shudder at now.

So revisit your CV, revisit the projects and the people, and ask for feedback. But ultimately, know your value and be kind to that value. Own it, and things will start to change. And I just think that when we are more compassionate with ourselves, others will follow and opportunities will present themselves.

Carol Fishman Cohen: That's fantastic advice. And I'm hoping everyone is listening really carefully to what you just said. Nuala before we end, I want to know if you could please tell our audience how they can find out more about your work or be connected with.

Nuala Murphy: Yeah. So from my work point of view, I think it would be really great to connect on LinkedIn.

I would love to connect with Relaunchers and the community and it's Nuala F Murphy. So it's N U A L A F Murphy. Some people say Nuala, which I think signs very exotic. It helps with the spelling. I also, I'm on Instagram and that's a new platform for me and also Diversity Mark. So if you follow me on Instagram then you'll see the links to Diversity Mark there, and also I'd love to connect and support and learn from you all, whatever that might look like.

Carol Fishman Cohen: That's very generous of you, Nuala. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Nuala Murphy: Thank you so much for having me, Carol. It's been a blast.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yes, same here. And thanks for listening to 3, 2, 1 iRelaunch the podcast where we discuss return to work strategies, advice, and success stories. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, the CEO and co-founder of iRelaunch and your host. For more information on iRelaunch conferences and events to sign up for our job board and access our return to work tools and resources.

Go to iRelaunch.com. And if you like this podcast, be sure to rate it on apple podcast. And your favorite podcast platform, and be sure to share this podcast with a friend on Facebook, Instagram, and other social media. Thanks for joining us.