Carol Fishman Cohen: Welcome to 3, 2, 1 iRelaunch the podcast where we discuss return to work strategies, advice, and success stories. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, CEO and co-founder of iRelaunch and your host. Today we're speaking with Shay Baker. Shay is the Program Manager for Return Utah, the first and only state return to work program in the United States.

Shay manages the overall return to work experience for state returnees, as well as collaborative training and orientation efforts between dozens of state agencies and iRelaunch. Shay is also responsible for the marketing and communication campaigns utilized to increase visibility of the Return Utah brand and its success. As a returner herself and a member of the inaugural cohort of Return Utah, Shay's returnship was at the Utah Department of Commerce as a communication specialist. Prior to her eight-year career break, Shay worked as a television news producer and reporter in the Salt Lake City market. She holds a bachelor's degree in communication from Weber State University and lives in Layton, Utah with her husband and three daughters.

Now, interestingly, three senior women at the State of Utah are Relaunchers. One of them is Lieutenant Governor, Deidre Henderson, who took a 13 year career break and who was the impetus behind Return Utah. Shay, welcome to 3, 2, 1 iRelalunch.

Shay Baker: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Thanks for being here. And why don't we start out by talking about your career path, career break. I know I mentioned in the intro that you're relauncher, you were part of the inaugural cohort of Return Utah, and were a television news reporter and producer. And can you tell us how long your career break was and what you did before and then what, why you ended up taking their career break?

Shay Baker: Yes. So I was on a career break for eight years. And just prior to my career break, I was working as a reporter in the Salt Lake City market as at a TV news station here. And I actually chose to go on a career break because I had my first child. As many of you may or may not know, the news industry is a super busy industry. It has some work-life balance, but it's pretty difficult in the sense that you're on call all the time.

There's a lot of options to be called in for breaking news. If it's election season, oftentimes you'll work late, you'll do double shifts on election night. And if there's things like that happening, you're at the whim of the to the news cycle. My husband was traveling a lot for his job at that time and we had a baby and that work-life balance just didn't work out for me.

It was hard for me to be working weekends and to be working 15 days straight. Sometimes if we have busy stories or people calling in sick. And it's hard to drop off your baby in the morning to a babysitter and then get called into breaking news and try to pick them up at 11:00 PM. That just doesn't really work.

So for us, we were financially able to allow me to stay home and I chose to stay home with my daughter. And I now have three - she's eight, my oldest and I still have young children. I have a five-year-old and I have a one-year-old baby that just turned one recently.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Wow. That's a lot for sure. And thank you for that background.

Can you tell us, some more details about the Return Utah program and how long is it and what kind of roles are involved in and maybe some of the features of the program?

Shay Baker: Sure. So the Return Utah program focuses itself around sort of a returnship opportunity. This idea that you return to work in sort of an internship setting, but it's an internship for adults who have an education and to have a professional background.

So you're starting in the middle as opposed to on the bottom. Which is what most return or excuse me, what most internships do. So the returnship is like a mid-level internship to get you back in. And here in the state of Utah, we have all sorts of types of positions. So in my inaugural cohort, I was a communications specialist.

There were people in purchasing. People that were data analysts, policy analysts, we had a person at the division of alcohol and beverage control that was working on I think the alcohol, like a huge project with sort of alcohol percentages and spirits and wines, and trying to loosen regulation on those type of things here in the state of Utah.

So they really vary across the board. Right now we have a cohort that's going, we have 15 people in this cohort and they run all over the place from positions that include assistance and secretaries to things like data analysts to things like, childcare supervisors, to things like program managers for tourism.

There's all sorts of job opportunities and some are part-time. Some are full-time, some are 16 weeks, and then they decide from there if you're going to move onward or stay with the organization. Some of these are intent to hire positions, meaning that they're bringing you on as like an audition.

And if things are going well, you get a full-time job or whatever job you're looking for. So there's a lot of flexibility there and it's really exciting.

Yeah, I have to say one of the notable besides being the very first state return to work program, which is exciting in itself, the breadth of roles and different types of roles and the part-time versus full-time, pretty neat to a returnship program as far as what we've seen. And I really liked to see that huge variety in different types of roles. And I remember, having worked really closely with the first cohort that the roles that people were in were pretty challenging roles and at, in all different areas, really across the organization.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Very unique in general, but also to be right out of the gate with that much breadth in your program. Shay, can you talk about eligibility? Like how long does your career break have to be? Do people have all different types of career breaks? Like how do you know if you're eligible or certain amount of work experience in order to apply?

Shay Baker: To be eligible. The first step is that you have to have had a career break period, and we've listed that career break is two years or more. So you have to have been out of the workforce for two years or more. The reason why you were out of the workforce, doesn't matter to us, obviously that's personal.

So it doesn't matter. We have people in the current cohort that's running right now who have they're returning to work after being stay at home moms. We have a couple of people who are returning because they have had a divorce and they need a job or they need to jump start a new career or a new path.

We have a couple of people who have had some health problems. We have a retiree, a gentleman that had a great career and was retired and he's bored and he wants to do a part-time job along with golf, but he doesn't want to be like a cashier or an usher at a movie theater, he wants like a real higher paying job that's part-time that takes him further into his retirement years. So it's a great fit for him. We also have, we do have a student. A young man who has been working on getting his degree for many years. And so he's looking into a professional job that actually harbors some of the things he did prior to going to college.

He's a nontraditional student. So he's older. He's not your standard, 18 to 22. He's in his late twenties and he had some work experience prior to getting his degree. And so now that he's been off for several years just going to school, he's looking for the perfect opportunity.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Shay, when you're talking about all these different reasons for career break, it really reflects how we approach relaunching at iRelaunch that, people take career breaks for so many different reasons. And I love that you have a retiree in there who is quote unretiring, that's what we call it. And we don't have that many retirees unretiring in formal employer return to work programs. So really exciting to hear about that person being in the mix.

So I'm just curious, because you worked for TV stations and private sector companies, and now you're working in the public sector. Is there anything that you noticed because I'm just going to reiterate, you are in the inaugural cohort, of Return Utah before now leading the program itself, which is fantastic.

But I'm just wondering, did you note anything different, working for the state as opposed to working for a private employer?

Shay Baker: Yeah, there's a couple things. And the first I would say is very positive. I was very impressed coming into my new job as a returner at sort of the openness of people in the excitement that was surrounding the returnship opportunity.

I went to the Utah Department of Commerce, which is run by a returner herself, Margaret Busse, who was out of the workforce for over a decade to raise her children. She's highly educated, she's extremely bright and brilliant, and just really carries her exceptionally. And I think she was part of that. She was so excited to get the department involved in this program.

When I first met with her, one of the first things she said to me was, I've been there. I remember doing this, I've been there. It's scary. And that really made me feel comfortable. And I feel like because she had that sort of sense of what it's like to return to a job after a career break and how it's nerve wracking and scary, but also really exciting at the same time.

I think she really bolstered the rest of the department and everyone was really kind and welcoming. The second thing I noticed that sort of surprised me, and this is probably my own bias is I think everyone has this idea of what sort of state government is, or what working for the government is. I think we all have this idea that employees that work in government are lazy and that they, they do the minimal amount of work that's required and, they hate their jobs and all of this stuff.

The bureaucracy that it's so mundane and maybe that's from reading too many political science books about the bureaucracy. I was very surprised. I was impressed by the fact that people didn't hate their jobs. They seem to like it in the agency I was at, I was impressed by the quality of people that were there.

We're talking people that have Juris Doctorates and MBAs and two bachelor's degrees and experience in the private sector and they've come along because they want to make a difference. I was so impressed by the quality of people that worked there. Almost everyone I worked with had a higher level degree.

A master's degree or above, lots of law degrees in government and that's great. Like it's great to work with people who have this great experience and this intellect that transcends academia and works in real life. That was exciting to me. And in addition, I was really impressed by everyone's.

It seemed at least at the Department of Commerce, they have this goal of just continuous improvement. And I really saw that everyone there was looking at just improving and constantly bettering services, which in the private sector and maybe. I've seen that in other jobs I've had, but I also worked in news where it's go and it's deadline, and there's a lot going on. And you're certainly always trying to improve, but a lot of the focus is just getting your story on the air by deadline and making sure it's quality. And so sometimes that improvement has to take the back burner, just to get the story on the air.

So it was nice to see such a focus. The only downside. I would say to working in government that I have found is there is some red tape, right? If you're coming in and you're given a task, do this, you really have to figure it out because government, it's been, everything's been organized a certain way for quite a long time.

So for example, when I was at Commerce, one of the things we wanted to do was look at communication strategies that were being used internally and externally. There was a review done by sort of a transition team after Governor Cox who's our current governor was elected and a transition team looking at how we could further align ourself, all the agencies, how they could align themselves with his plan for the State of Utah.

And one of the things that was mentioned in that review was that. That the Department of Commerce needed to improve sort of their customer involvement, their role, or how they were looked at by the customer. Because commerce serves hundreds of thousands of people. They help people get business licenses to open a business.

They help people get personal licenses to be a physician or a nurse, or to build homes or to cut hair or do nails or do a tattoo. I mean they really license a ton of people for all sorts of reasons. And, it was important to know, what does the public think about our services? Are they satisfied or are they frustrated. But to do that across the entire agency and figure that out was near impossible because if you work in the real estate, you only have access to real estate stuff. If you work in licensing, you only have access to that. If you work in securities, you only have access to that. So there is some red tape because of the way things are organized and was pretty common for me to hear, "we've never done that before."

We'll figure out how to get past that, but we've never done that before. And that's, I don't know that exists in the private sector. Because it's not so regimented.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah, but people who work in very big bureaucratic private sector organizations might very well say the same thing, but, I really appreciate your frank reflections there on the differences.

I also have to join you in praise for Margaret Busse, who is a senior level relauncher as you said, along with Lieutenant Governor Henderson and also the Lieutenant Governor's Chief of Staff, Jen Robison took an 18-year career break. I think Margaret Busse took a 12-year career break.

It is so unusual to have senior level relaunchers at the top of an organization models, not only for the relaunchers, but for the employers to see this is what it looks like when relaunchers have been back after their career brake and have moved up into senior roles.

Shay Baker: And we're trying to find more, frankly. After starting this role now running the Return Utah program, I thought to myself, there's got to be more people that are returners. There has to be more. And so I sent out a statewide email blast. If you know anyone that's a returner. I need their name because I want to utilize them as a resource so that if I have a returner that's a retiree.

Maybe he can call someone that's a retiree at a different department and say "Hey, how did this transition work for you? We're trying to set up a more viable mentorship sort of program within Return Utah, a buddy system to really help our returners and give them a resource, a soundboard to discuss things with." I discovered two more people at higher level leadership. There's Jenney Rees, who is the Executive Director of Government Operations. And one of her Deputy Directors Marilee Richins both returned from raising children. So that's really exciting.

Carol Fishman Cohen: I love that. And also your concept about the mentoring piece, because we know from experience how important and you, and I both know as relaunchers ourselves, how meaningful it is to be able to be mentored by, or have a relationship with someone inside an organization who has returned themselves.

And they really understand every phase of that transition firsthand. So that's exciting. And also because your program's growing, so you are going to be able to have a larger and larger number of relaunchers inside the organization who can be in that role. So all of that is excellent news. Shay, I just want to jump for a minute to your own personal situation, because, you were in that first cohort in the commerce area and communications, and then you move to become leader of the program of Return Utah. And I just want to know, if you can tell us a little bit about that transition and what you're thinking about in terms of your leadership role and your priorities or envision for the program in the future.

Shay Baker: Okay, priority number one is to just get a grasp on the program itself. So I'm only in week three of this role. I just ended my experience at the Department of Commerce. So I'm still trying to understand the backend of the program as a participant. Obviously, I understand what it's like to be a returner, how I felt.

My fellow returners that were in my cohort when we were starting, we talk often. And so I utilize their experiences because I really want to make sure it's a positive experience for our returners that's a top priority for me. But really I'm just trying to get my grasp on the backend of the program, right?

Like how do you run this program on the state? How do you make it easier for managers? How do you help coach people in a way that gives them autonomy, but also, makes it a win-win situation for everyone? How do we get people excited about this program within the state? How do we inform the media and outside groups so that this program grows, there's all sorts of functions.

And I have a lot of goals going forward or at least ideas. Right now I'm just looking at trying to figure out how the program functions. And one of my main focuses is setting up the program through the end of the year. We've decided we're going to do three cohorts a year. This week, I've set up dates for what those cohorts are, when they're going to start, when they're going to end and when everything is going to happen in between.

And then the goals are really to help establish the program. So it's sustainable. That's a main goal so that if I were to step away or if someone else were to for some reason come in, that it can continue to run successfully and in doing so that requires filling some holes. So Dan Chadwick at the Division of Human Resource Management, excuse me, Jenny Wakefield. They pretty much set this program up on their own. They were given a directive from Lieutenant Governor's office to make it happen. They made it happen. They made it seamless. It was a wonderful experience for us, but it was a starter, I'm forever impressed. Like every time I go to get to work, I'm like, I can't believe they did this amount of work.

This was a lot of work to do in a short amount of time. My job is to just take the program to new heights and utilize my marketing and communication experience and help the program grow, but also utilizing some HR experience I had in the past to really help make this program successful on all fronts and to make it innovative, to make it interesting.

And so those are some of my main goals, really just to grasp the program, to ensure that this first cohort that I'm managing is having a successful experience. From there we're going to make it grow. And then we're going to fill in some holes and improve the experience for managers. And another main goal is to get that mentorship sort of buddy system program within the program running so that is successful in that everyone feels supported and I'm sure those goals are going to continue as we go forward. And as the program changes, the Lieutenant Governor's office is really interested in expanding this program to include the private sector in a way that the state provides resources and help for private sector businesses that want to start their own programs.

And that will happen eventually too. Time will tell. But first and foremost, I'm just trying to keep this one running and accomplish those very basic goals of growth mentorship and improving the overall experience.

Carol Fishman Cohen: So those sound like foundational and fundamental goals that are exactly the right thing to be focusing on at this stage.

And it's so thrilling to see you in that role. And I think the experience that you had being in the program itself is just invaluable in terms of a vantage point from which to think about where the program can go from here. I want to jump to what the recruiting process was like. Maybe, I don't know if you want to comment on the recruiting process you went through or how the recruiting process was maybe tweaked for this second cohort, even though that was before you officially got into this role.

And if you have any advice for a Relaunchers who are interested in applying for the Return Utah program.

Shay Baker: So the recruiting process was pretty much the same for my cohort, as well as for the cohort that's currently running. They're in week three of 16 weeks. So we're all new together.

That process has been pretty similar. There hasn't been any big changes. I don't know if there will be big changes down the line either - that's gone pretty well. Of course, we'll always look at ways to improve, but, really it's very basic. When an agency decides, if they have an opportunity that a returnship can fill.

And what that looks like, right? Do they want to keep them on? If they do a good job, do they have the budget for a full-time role, a part-time role, et cetera. The agency makes that choice. They then inform us at Return Utah and they have an HR analyst that works with them. That job is posted in the traditional way.

It's on the state website. There might be additional postings under sort of the Return Utah umbrella, like on our LinkedIn or whatever. But it's just posted the regular way and candidates that meet the criteria can apply. And of course there's a screening process as there is in any other job. If they don't have a two-year career break, it doesn't really work.

But they're screened, they're interviewed. And if they're successful in the interview process, they get a job offer, but they are told of course, that it's this returnship opportunity. Typically, they meet that criteria and they're looking for something like that. So it really is a great fit. Obviously if someone's working full-time and looking for a change, a returnship isn't a good fit. So they would be not even involved in the interview process, they would be screened prior.

But in terms of actually getting a position or the sort of interview or hiring process, my only advice would be to really, to just be brave. I think it's scary when you've been out of the workforce, it's terrifying to rewrite your resume. It's confusing on how to rewrite a resume with a career break, because you're always told, if there's holes in a resume, it doesn't make sense. And it's the first one cast out. How do you overcome that hurdle? How do you go into an interview when you haven't really had a conversation that was work-related in many years?

In my case I was a stay-at-home mom. I felt, and I still feel like my vocabulary isn't up to par as it once was. I still feel that I don't think as well on my feet as I used to. There's all sorts of barriers. If you think about someone who may be returning after caring for a loved one, maybe someone in their family was sick.

You're looking at some really emotional things that were really difficult there. That's hard to find purpose in something that's professional when everything you did was maybe life or death for somebody. So there's a lot of different fears there. So my first advice would be to be brave.

My second would be to utilize your network. I started trying to fix my resume. I didn't even realize I needed one, and I had an interview and I thought, oh yeah, I probably need a resume, don't I? Oh, shoot. I've got three days and I have no idea what to do. And so I called some friends and I said, I'm sending you this resume. What do you think? What do you think I should do? I Googled everything on, "how do I write a resume when I've had a career break," all sorts of things. I think together, we all came with a conclusion.

I practiced interviewing briefly. I love to interview. So back in the day when I was younger, I used to do pageants and interviewing was like, my strength. But oh my gosh, did I struggle as an adult who hasn't really had intelligent conversations for many years. So I made my husband ask me questions. I rehearsed in the mirror as I would put my makeup on in the morning for a week or two, because I just was unfamiliar with it. And I really utilized my network, I talked to people. I got ideas.

I had a few friends who are really willing to hear about all my concerns, all of the things that excited me about the opportunity. And they were so supportive. I had a friend that even, she talked to her husband about it, and then she texted me later and said, "TJ wants to talk to you and give his opinion."

And he gave me his opinion and they're valued friends of ours. So it meant a lot to me that so many people were cheering for me, whatever my decision was. And just looking for my success. And a couple of weeks in, when I felt that the returnship was going well, I mentioned to that same friend, "I feel like I need more to do."

And so I told them I needed more to do. And that I could handle more than they were giving me. And she was like, of course you did. Of course you did, because you can handle anything. Who doesn't need that kind of cheerleader in their corner? So utilize your network and be brave.

Right before I started, I'll actually share this because I thought it was serendipitous. I went to take my eight-year-old daughter to a dance store to buy tap shoes because the dance season was starting. And this is like a week before my returnship is to start. I'd accepted the job, but I had not secured childcare. I was terrified. And I was actually concerned for two reasons. I thought, if I don't get childcare, I'll bag it. And that idea felt like a relief. But then I thought, but if I do get childcare, I'll go to this job. And that felt like a relief also. Like it was clear I was still torn. When we went to this dance store and we bought her dance shoes and like a scrunchie or something, and there were these postcards on the counter of two dancers and this postcard said "Do big and scary things."

Carol Fishman Cohen: Wow.

Shay Baker: So I grabbed it and I took it. And when I started my job, I hung it up right there in front of me. And in my new job, it's right there because I'm a firm believer in doing that in general in your life. But I think when you have not been working for a while, your confidence does take a hit. You wonder if you can really do the things that people think you can do.

I'm wondering that right now, to be honest in my new role. Can I really pull this off? And, I just think that's a huge, that's like a slogan for life, right? Do big and scary things, because it always pays off and you always can rise to the occasion. I know very few people who don't because that pressure motivates us to succeed, even if it's self-governed pressure. And I just thought that was so serendipitous. I grabbed it. I grabbed one for my girls. I have all girls and I brought it home and I said to my husband, look. And I'm like, oh, this childcare thing's going to work out. We're going to find somebody. And we did the next day. It all works out.

Carol Fishman Cohen: I love the advice and this anecdote. And also how you're talking now about, how it worked out during the returnship and how it's working out right now. And obviously you are exceeding expectations in every way and you did, and I will also mention that the inaugural cohort had a hundred percent conversion. All the returners that were in the program were hired at the end. So the self-doubt and the conversation you were having with yourself, as you're applying and before it's am I thinking as well as I used to, and my language. It all came roaring back and your community knows you so well, but they already knew that was going to happen, right?

Shay Baker: Yeah. Which is so enlightening. And I think for returners, who are so... it's hard. It's just hard to go back to work. It's hard. There's a lot of fear. There's a lot of self doubt. There's a lot of you're rusty in certain a certain sense. And you're worried about what that looks like to your supervisors and your managers, and are they going to be patient?

Are they going to be nice to you? Are people going to like you coming in? Are they going to be like, who's this person and treat you like a college intern, which is, that was a fear of mine. Is this going to be like a real job or am I, they say I'm starting at the middle. Am I really, or am I going to feel like a college intern like I did when you're an intern in a newsroom? You're at the bottom. Nobody minces words. Okay. They know you're at the bottom. You're certainly not running to get coffee for people, but you're definitely at the bottom, you're at the bottom. And if you want to rise to the top, you got to just, pull up your big girl pants, and you've got to just go get it and look for those opportunities, even though it's embarrassing almost to say Hey, can I go out with you and your photographer and watch how you do this story and watch how you do this.

And can I write this for you? It's embarrassing. So I was worried coming in that it would be like that, which I loved my internships back in the day. But it's hard. It's hard to swallow your pride that way sometimes. And my husband was so kind in saying a few weeks in, he said to my now nanny, he said, I can see when Shay has seen light and this is a transition for our family.

It has been, it hasn't been all peaches and cream. It's been a little hard to get used to things, and me being busy in a different way, but he said, I know when Shay has seen light and when Shay has seen light, she's an incredible force. And I've been so grateful because he's been a huge cheerleader for me.

And he has seen that resurgence in me. And we've now discussed like our future and our sort of both of our career goals, which I wondered if I'd ever do that again. And it's just very exciting because at the same time, I don't feel like my family is suffering. It's a good time for us. And the timing was right.

And the position and everything was right. So it's just very exciting. And I would just encourage everyone to just really utilize that network when you don't feel like you have the strength and then once you have that strength and you're feeling comfortable in yourself, just be so grateful and humble to all those that helped you get there.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Shay thank you so much for laying all of this out and making it personal and telling us so much about your own transition. In addition to giving us so much information about Return Utah, it was really special conversations. So I appreciate that. Thank you.

Shay Baker: Thank you. And I will say really quick, Carol, if you don't mind, my experience is my experience, but it was that way across the board. For my fellow cohort members, it was something that built all of our confidence. It was a transformative experience for us. And now all of us are in, actual real roles where we're not returnship or where it's temporary or whatever. And the experience was the same for all of us.

And that's a really great thing to say. So I think if someone's on the fence about returning to work or how to do it, sometimes I think we think too much about it. Just do it. If you want to do it, just do it. And the rest will work out from there. It always does. Everything will get worked out on its way.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Wow. Those are great words to wrap up our conversation. Shay right before we end our conversation.

Can you tell us how our audience can find out more information about Return Utah? And I guess before you answer that, can you just clarify, do people have to be a resident of the state of Utah in order to apply for and participate in the program?

Shay Baker: Yes. So in order to participate in the program or to pursue a job posting that you're interest interested in within Return Utah, you have to live in the state of Utah.

A lot of the opportunities are remote, but the Lieutenant Governor and Governor feel that if we're doing this transitional program, we really want to do it for Utahns that work for the state of Utah. That's the ultimate goal. So for those people, you can look on, Indeed. You can look on our state job board, for people that are actually applying within the state. For everyone who may have an interest in either learning about the program, maybe you have a family member that lives in Utah, or maybe you don't live in Utah, but you're interested in a program or sort of resources or some direction. We do have a website called https://inutah.org/return/. And that's a good resource to basically get information, very general information on the program. We're working on a branded Return Utah LinkedIn, and some other social media things as well, which people can look into.

And, if there's any questions in regard to setting up your own program or how to make this work on a state level or how you can get involved, where you are, people can feel free to contact me. I'm Shay Baker on LinkedIn and on Twitter. And I'm happy to answer questions or maybe refer you to someplace that you can get the resources you need. Right now, the information is pretty general, but that's another goal sort of long-term is to increase our media presence and our visibility here at Return Utah so we're more accessible to those who need us.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Excellent. That's very generous of you to offer to speak with people through your LinkedIn. So thanks, Shay and Shay. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Shay Baker: Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And thanks for listening to 3, 2, 1 iRelaunch the podcast where we discuss return to work strategies, advice, and success stories. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, the CEO, and co-founder of iRelaunch and your host for more information on iRelaunch conferences and events to sign up for our job board and access our return to work tools and resources. Go to irelaunch.com and if you liked this podcast, be sure to rate it on apple podcasts and your favorite podcast platform, and be sure to share this podcast with a friend on Facebook, Instagram, and other social media.

Thanks for joining us.