Carol Fishman Cohen: Welcome to 3,2,1 iRelaunch, the podcast where we discuss return to work strategies, advice and success stories. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, CEO and co-founder of iRelaunch and your host. Today we welcome Mai Ensmann. Mai is the senior program planner at Cyber Florida, the Florida Center for Cybersecurity. Previously, Mai had worked as a program manager and trainer for international higher education programs and nonprofit and humanitarian organizations in the US and across Europe, Africa, and central Asia.

Mai took an 11 year career break while raising her children in Belgium, Switzerland, and Ghana. She spent many hours folding laundry and listening to the 3,2,1 iRelaunch podcast while planning her successful return to work. In this episode, Mai will share her tips for repatriating expats looking to reenter the workforce, and discuss why relaunchers should consider cybersecurity for their next career.

Mai, welcome to 3,2,1 iRelaunch.

Mai Ensmann: Thanks, Carol. It's an honor to be here with you today. As you mentioned, I did spend many hours doing housework and listening to the podcast and thinking, "Oh my God, how am I ever going to be able to relaunch?" And it is such a pleasure that I can be here today and speaking on the podcast, hopefully I can share some tips and some encouragement to your listeners.

Carol Fishman Cohen: I can't tell you how great it is for me to hear that, that you listened to our podcast and it was helpful to you, and now here you are on the podcast talking about your relaunch success story! It's incredible. So I'm so excited to have this conversation. Can you start by telling our audience about your career path that led up to your career break, and then what made you decide to take a career break?

Mai Ensmann: So I started my career in the Peace Corps as an English teacher in Kyrgyzstan, right out of university. From there I received a master's in education from Harvard University and then worked with international programs at Brown University and the University of Wisconsin-Madison. So while I was on campus, I was involved with various campus safety programs and that eventually led to working as the campus resource for sexual and domestic violence. And then eventually that led to me working as a law enforcement trainer.

So I knew I always wanted to go back abroad. And so I was looking at humanitarian positions focused on gender-based violence. This was a major career pivot for me, and it was challenging. It took about two years of applying for various overseas positions. But I did find a consultancy with UNICEF in Chad. This was my first time trying to do a career pivot, and it taught me the importance of not getting discouraged and not giving up and to stick with it. So I worked as a consultant with UNICEF in Chad, and then decided to stay on contract with a child protection agency. And there I met my Belgian husband who was working with Doctors Without Borders. As our contracts ended, we decided to move to Brussels temporarily and start applying for other positions. And we decided that whoever got the first position, the other would follow. He got the first position, and so I followed. From there, we went to Malawi.

He was with Doctors Without Borders again, and I was able to find a position as the director of a child protection program, working with HIV positiven children. We got married. I became pregnant and I had difficulties with that pregnancy. I was medically evacuated to South Africa and fortunately the baby was fine, but I was strongly encouraged to leave Malawi.

We didn't necessarily have a home to go back to. When we looked at our situation, we realized that Belgium would be the easiest option. He already had an apartment. I had a European passport because my family is Estonian. So I left my contract early and settled into Brussels. I mention all of this because when I got to Brussels, we had the baby and decided to stay on in Brussels, but I didn't have a job to go back to.

So I really became a stay at home mom by default. And I was fine with that because my mom had been a stay at home mom, so I was really looking forward to that. I really had enough on my plate, new baby, new country, new languages. It was just overwhelming. But being a stay at home mom in Brussels was just a wonderful experience.

It's a very international city. So there's folks from all over the world who work there. So I was involved with the Brussels Childbirth Press, which is a parenting organization which provides prenatal classes and playgroups throughout the city. So I really was able to throw myself into being a stay at home mom and make friends.

And I felt very supported as a stay at home mom in Brussels. I did plan to go back to work once my daughter started kindergarten at two and a half years old. But, of course...

Carol Fishman Cohen: Oh, they start early.

Mai Ensmann: Very early. That was the plan. And I also, during that time, was looking over consultancies. I did get an offer for a six week consultancy in Northern Uganda with the International Rescue Committee.

I remember when I got the offer, I asked my best friend, "I don't know what to do now that I have this." And she said, "Well, basically you're damned if you do or damned if you don't. If you don't go, then you're going to feel resentful. And if you do go, you're going to feel like a bad mommy." So I decided to be the bad mommy, and went to Uganda. And it was a great professional experience, but it was too long. And it cured me of applying for any more international consultancies. So, my time as a stay at home mom lasted longer than I originally planned. My daughter went to kindergarten and then I was pregnant with my son.

And so the plan then was, okay, so once my son starts kindergarten, then I can go.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yep, that's how career breaks last longer than people think. Right?

Mai Ensmann: And so before my son could go to kindergarten, then my husband moved us to Switzerland for a new job assignment. So in Switzerland, it wasn't feasible for me to go to work.

My son was at home with me full-time. My daughter went to a local kindergarten and it was part-time. It was only in the mornings with two afternoon sessions. So the kids come home everyday for lunch, then they go back to school. We were also in a village, so there weren't a lot of opportunities where we were.

And I did make friends with some other international moms who were there, but it was isolating. I felt like I was at home all the time dealing with childcare. I did a lot of yoga. I got myself certified as a yoga teacher, and then after three years in Switzerland, my husband was again assigned to another position, and we moved to Accra, Ghana.

In Ghana then I did not have work authorization. I did apply for two jobs that were posted at the US Embassy, but was not selected for those positions. So, I decided then to kind of just stop any sort of job search and just enjoy what was available there in Ghana. So I threw myself into volunteer work, and I taught yoga at different studios across Accra.

I was the director of humanitarian projects for the North American Women's Association. And I was also the co-leader for the Girl Scouts troop at my daughter's troop. Yeah. It was a really wonderful experience living in Ghana. But as all expat assignments come to an end, after almost four years in Ghana, we moved back to Belgium. Now in Belgium, my kids were in school, I had a European passport so I could work and I was ready. I was like, "Okay, this time going back to work." So that was my career break.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Mai, can you tell me a little bit about the strengths that expats bring to the workplace as employees in general? And I'm thinking about this because you have spent many years as an expat yourself and you have met many of them in different communities.

Mai Ensmann: Sure. I think that expats and trailing spouses are incredibly resilient and adaptable. Changes are constant. And I also believe that we are great at networking. So I, myself I'm an introvert, but you need to network and meet new people, it's a survival skill.

Carol Fishman Cohen: You mean you're always in a new location and so you have to re-establish all of your relationships?

Mai Ensmann: Yep. So everywhere that we've lived, I would join the local American Women's Organization because they were the greatest resource for information and assistance and support. We don't have our families or friends to help us. So you need to quickly network and find people that you can connect with, but then also who could provide assistance. I think that expats also have amazing logistical skills. I've coordinated so many moves over the years and handled all the logistics of closing up shop in one location and then resettling into a new home and new schools and activities. And so far I haven't lost a suitcase or a shipment or a child or a dog yet.

And the other thing that I think that we bring is that we're able to reinvent ourselves. I think this is a huge skill that, as life changes, that we're able to take on new challenges and reinvent ourselves every few years, it just shows our resiliency and our adaptability.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah, it's so interesting. I was just thinking about, there's all this focus on supply chain now, which is very logistics oriented, I'm thinking, would that be an interesting match for someone who had moved around a lot or been an expat to put that skill forth as a transferable skill relevant to that field.

But one thing, Mai, that you mentioned, I just want to ask you an additional question about, you mentioned being an introvert. And I wanted to know. If you could comment on the relaunch journey as an introvert and how you push yourself to get out of your comfort zone and do some things that might feel awkward or uncomfortable in order to move forward in your job search.

Mai Ensmann: Recognizing that it may feel awkward and uncomfortable to meet new people and to go to networking events and to tell your story. Yeah, it doesn't feel comfortable. It's not normal or natural for me, but it's something that I've pushed myself and realizing that, "Okay, we've got to do this. Let's go." And just sitting with that discomfort and recognizing that there's other people that are also in your same boat.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Well, we have plenty of introverts in general and also of course, in the relauncher community, and there are some people who work on their relaunch through their writing skills and use that as a way to network, especially now that we're in a virtual world and we're doing a lot online and on LinkedIn, even in the comments section.

But I always like to highlight when someone says they're an introvert just how they manage because we get that question a lot. And the introvert community is large. So it's really relevant to your comments about that. Thank you. Just to focus on something you said, "I was ready" and I can even see, by the way you're saying it, that the readiness piece can be kind of elusive. “Am I ready?” “Am I not ready?” “Am I thinking about everything?” But, when we have relaunchers who are in that phase, they're usually still questioning a lot, but when they come back to us and say, "I am so ready," then you know that it's really time. And it sounds like you knew that. You had that moment.

Mai Ensmann: I was ready when we were in Ghana. I remember watching one of my daughter's swim meets, and I was sitting next to a friend of mine who had previously worked as a journalist back in her home country. And we were looking at all the moms who were assembled there by the pool. She turned to me, she was like, "God, just look at this place. It's like the graveyard of ambition."

Carol Fishman Cohen: Wow, what an interesting comment.

Mai Ensmann: It just hit me like a punch in the gut. It was like, all these moms, none of us were working full time. And if you would ask these women, they could give you a full list of all of their previous professional accomplishments. It's just that in our circumstances, as trailing spouses, we weren't working. So here we were supporting our kids, doing the community work.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yes, the great enablers. That's what Vivian and I called it in Back on the Career Track when we wrote our book that came out back in 2007. But wow, "the graveyard of ambition," and this is why employers are now all these years later, recognizing that we are this hidden pool of great talent. Because we left the workforce for reasons that had nothing to do with our work performance. And as you said, around that pool, every person could list all their professional success and their skill sets. And the circumstances just didn't allow them to be working at that time.

Before we move on to details about how you actually did relaunch your career, I just have one question for you about being an expat. And can you give any kind of commentary to people who might be considering expat experience about some of the challenges? Now you had an unusual situation because you also had a European passport.

So even when you were in Europe, you had a work permit, essentially. Whereas some people, if they're coming from the US they have no option of working, except maybe at the embassy. Let's say they come from the US that's like technical US soil, so they can actually work at the embassy. Is that pretty much what you're limited to?

Mai Ensmann: Pretty much, yeah. There's some expats who do get work visas for their spouses, but I would say the majority don't. So for those who are the great enablers, the trailing spouses, it can be jarring when you all of a sudden are stripped from your professional life and you lose your status.

When you meet someone at a party, the first thing they ask you is, "What do you do?" And all of a sudden you don't have an answer for that anymore. I guess one thing that helped me was just realizing that this was just a phase in my life. This was not going to be forever. I knew in the beginning it was like, okay, young children, there was a date, at the age of two and a half you're in school and I can start. So it helped me to put it in context. And then for me in Brussels, there was such a large community of other expatriate moms that I did feel supported, I wasn't alone. In Ghana, again, most of us realized this was not going to be for the rest of our lives. This was just a limited term. So, it is easy for trailing spouses to get resentful or to get depressed. But for me, I was like, take this opportunity to reinvent yourself, focus on activities that you enjoy. And, I took some online courses. Like I said, I threw myself into volunteer work.

So I did keep myself active, even though I wasn't getting paid for any of the work I was doing.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And when you were taking those courses and doing that volunteer work, did that allow you to discover something that you might've been interested in doing later? Or did it reinforce earlier choices you had made, and did that impact at all what you decided to look for when you were relaunching?

Mai Ensmann: It reinforced my previous career choices, working as the leader for our humanitarian projects for the North American Women's Association, it was really great. We were able to provide grants to small, local organizations that were helping women and children around Accra and across Ghana. And then also working as a yoga teacher, it was just fun. And I was able to create my own community. Then, working as a Girl Scout leader, I loved when I was teaching back in the Peace Corps. So it was fun to be a group leader again. It also helped just to keep me fresh and up-to-date as far as having to organize our humanitarian projects. So it did provide me an avenue to keep up to date as far as my professional skills.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Which is super important. And as we're now transitioning to what I want to ask you about, how you actually got your first job when you relaunched in some detail.

So when you returned to Belgium and we're getting ready, you said you were really ready. How did you actually navigate your relaunch? Can you give us some of the details of how it happened and what you ended up doing?

Mai Ensmann: Sure. I have to say that it was quite daunting. As I mentioned earlier, I was more than ready to get back to work. So I started by doing my research. I looked for local resources, and then I also looked online for resources, that's how I found iRelaunch. So I'd spend a lot of time listening to podcasts and reading up about career relaunching and career changing. Local resources, I didn't see a good fit for me.

So there were resources for new immigrants to the country, but I obviously was not an immigrant to Belgium. And, then there were resources for, let's say local professionals, mostly young professionals who are hoping to break into the workforce. But again, that wasn't necessarily a fit for someone like me, an older mom who is looking to relaunch into a new country.

So, the more I learned listening to the podcast and researching online, I realized I really needed some more help. I wanted professional help. It was very scary to try to relaunch in Brussels. Brussels is the capital of the European Union. So you have the best and the brightest from across Europe working and job searching in Brussels.

Most of these people have multiple degrees, speak multiple languages, and here I was after not working for 11 years and having never worked in Europe, going and trying to compete for jobs with these professionals. And, I was like, "Okay, I'm going to need a team to help me with this." So I decided I wanted to work with a career coach, but not just any career coach.

I wanted someone who could not just give me the skills that I needed and could guide me, but also someone who understood my experiences. I wanted someone who herself was an expat, someone who was a mom, and someone who had been there, done that. So I'm lucky, I did find a wonderful career coach, Dorothy Dalton. And, she was able to help me, not just provide me with, "Okay, let's rework your LinkedIn, let's rework your resume." But she also helped me to craft a narrative, "As far as all that you've been doing, how do we put this together into a coherent story that you can then sell to employers?" And so that was really wonderful. She was able to help me show that there's a way that you can speak about your experiences in a positive light instead of as a liability.

I was also able to leverage her professional community. Moving back to Brussels, since I'd never worked in Brussels, I didn't have a network. I still had a few girlfriends who were still there in Brussels, but I didn't have an extensive professional network. And so I was able to use my career coach's network to find positions.

Dorothy then introduced me to one of her colleagues, and I was working then as a volunteer at her consultancy firm. Then Dorothy also let me know about a position with the Digital Leadership Institute, and that led to my first full-time job back.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Okay. So Mai, I just want to clarify that progression again.

So tell me what happened first with your career coach, and then you got introduced to her friend, and the friend was running an organization?

Mai Ensmann: Yes. Dorothy then introduced me to one of her professional colleagues and she took me on as a volunteer for her consultancy firm. And then later, Dorothy learned about a position at the Digital Leadership Institute and so she introduced me then to her colleague who was the director of that agency. And that is what led to my first paid job.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Oh, wow, that's terrific. And it just shows sometimes people say, "I don't have a network. I'm in a brand new place." They'll say, even within the US, "I'm now in a new city and I don't have a network here." and we usually say to still tap your network in the other location. But in this case, when you're in a new country, you kind of piggybacked on the network of your career coach, which is an interesting strategy. We don't hear that often. So then fast forward to, you ended up having to relocate again to the US, and I don't know after how many years. Can you tell us a little bit about essentially the second relaunch and especially how you ended up getting into cybersecurity?

Mai Ensmann: Okay. Sure. I'm just going to speak a little bit about the work that I did at the Digital Leadership Institute, because that's what led to the cybersecurity.

So I was hired on, it was a contract position. I was hired to be a training coordinator, and I developed a training program for women who are looking to get back to work in the tech sector. So it was a really great fit for me. But of course I don't come from a technical background.

So I had to throw myself into learning everything I could during those first weeks and months. But again, I was so excited to be back at work. But I was giddy and I would spend all these hours and even weekends learning as much as I could. Yeah. I just remember myself going to work in the morning and dropping off the kids.

And I had a nice new briefcase that I just bought and how it felt to get back on the Metro, to go to work with other adults.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah, let me just interject there for a second, because this is a comment we hear consistently from employers. And I remember myself when I relaunched, when I was a financial analyst and when I went back to work after my 11 year career break. I remember those early days, I was so excited to be there and our employers will say, "Wow. The relaunchers are so thrilled to be at work every day, they really inject this enthusiasm into our work teams." So I love how your example just underscores that once again. So, you did that work, you were immersing yourself in the technical piece of it. And what happened after that?

Mai Ensmann: And cybersecurity was one of the topics that our agency did work on. So, the Digital Leadership Institute focused on advocating for the greater participation of girls and women in the tech sector, but also, we were invited to speak about the issues of cyber violence and online harassment. And I then, eventually, was one of the co-leads for a week-long workshop with the Council of Europe in Strasburg, France, on the issues of cyber violence and cybersecurity and online safety.

And so the more I learned about cybersecurity, the more I enjoyed it and I was hooked. I found it fascinating. And so I knew that eventually I'd like to work in the cyber security realm. So the contract that I was working on came to an end. And so it was at that time that we decided as a family that we wanted to relocate to the US.

It's something that we'd always talked about, and now it seemed like it was a good point to do it. My parents' health was not, they weren't doing as well. And so I really wanted to be back home and closer to them. And now back home is down south. So everyone lives in the south for some reason, even though we're not originally from the south, so Atlanta became the destination of choice. And then once we moved to Atlanta, I started job searching, and I started applying for jobs at various universities around Atlanta, Georgia Tech, Emory University, Agnes Scott College. Fortunately after just a couple of months, I did find a position at the evidence-based Cybersecurity Research Group at Georgia State University.

So I was delighted that I was back in higher education and then also working still within the cybersecurity realm.

Carol Fishman Cohen: That is incredible. Okay, so you're in this role. Did the role itself require technical knowledge of cybersecurity? And then did you have to take courses or, what happened there?

Mai Ensmann: That role did not require technical knowledge. Now I know enough about cybersecurity that terms are familiar, I can talk the talk. And so I was able to support the work of the professors and the researchers at the university. And then fast forward three years, and I'm now the Senior Program Planner at Cyber Florida, which is the Florida center for cybersecurity at University of South Florida.

And fortunately all the work that we're doing is remote. So I only traveled to Tampa as needed. But again, the work that I'm doing now at Cyber Florida, I'm supporting the education programs at Cyber Florida. So again, it's not necessary to have a deep technical knowledge about cybersecurity.

Carol Fishman Cohen: You're focusing more on how cybersecurity is taught at the university level, or now is it at different grade levels, like K through 12?

Mai Ensmann: I specifically am not involved with the K through 12 programs. So mostly university, and then also our workforce development programs for professionals.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Wait a minute, Mai, I probably shouldn't say that because who's teaching cybersecurity to kindergartners?

Mai Ensmann: There are staff at Cyber Florida that are working with our K through 12 education program.

Carol Fishman Cohen: So it wasn't so far fetched that I brought that up.

Mai Ensmann: They're introducing cyber security into the curriculum.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Interesting. Wow. So maybe a kindergartener might've heard some of the terms or the language and started to get familiar with the acronyms. So that's very interesting. Let me just go back to one detail. So when you ended up with the cyber security job in Florida, how did that happen?

Mai Ensmann: Again, I just applied online. And I know that most people say, use your network. But the business that I found at Georgia State University, it was a job I applied for online. And the job at Cyber Florida, same thing. So sometimes you do get lucky.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And also the particular skill set that you have is pretty unique. Occasionally people do actually get hired by applying online and then going through what would be a totally, almost textbook process without doing all the additional networking that's recommended. So that's pretty interesting. But you've really had both experiences. You've had one where you really needed to use a network and you've had two now where you almost we're not a relauncher anymore in the classic sense, because you had started working again so you didn't really have the prolonged career break. You were mainly changing jobs because you were in a new location.

So can you tell us a little bit more detail about Cyber Florida itself? What kind of training opportunities do they offer? And I think you've told me earlier that they offered training opportunities for relaunchers. Can you tell our audience a little bit about that?

Mai Ensmann: Sure. Cyber Florida is currently recruiting for our Cyber Works Program. It's our workforce development program, which is free of cost for Florida residents.

It's a 12 week intensive, online course, which prepares students to enter the cybersecurity workforce as a tier one security operations center, or SOC analyst. Students who complete our program then will receive a voucher to take a CompTia certification exam. Again, currently we're recruiting Florida residents and we're looking at specific populations.

There's preference for transitioning military veterans, first responders and career changers from historically underrepresented groups. So including women, people of color and people with disabilities.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And the course itself, so I'm actually a Florida resident. So let's say I registered for this course and I really have no background at all.

Does it start from the standpoint of someone who is truly a beginner or does it assume some sort of a prerequisite or preliminary work?

Mai Ensmann: We will be providing some coursework before the cybersecurity portion begins, so that people can get familiarized with the technology before the official program starts on January 22nd.

Carol Fishman Cohen: All right, so Mai, just to make sure that I'm understanding this correctly, do people need to have a technical background in order to enroll in the cyber course?

Mai Ensmann: No. We will be accepting people who do not have a strictly technical background, and Cyber Florida will provide an introductory course before the cyber portion begins for those who don't come from a more technical background.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Okay, so you're saying that when you take this course, it's actually in preparation for taking a specific exam. And is that a certain kind of credential and what is that credential and how hard is it to take the exam? Do people have to take it multiple times in order to pass?

Mai Ensmann: The course will properly prepare someone to take an entry-level cyber security certification exam. So we're offering our students the choice of either taking the CompTiaSec+ exam, or the CompTia cybersecurity analyst or CSec+ exam.

And these are both considered more or less your entry-level cyber security examinations and certifications.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And then once you have passed the exam, what kind of jobs do people go on to get after that?

Mai Ensmann: So this would prepare folks to become SOC analysts. So working at a security operation center at a company.

Carol Fishman Cohen: So SOC means security operation center.

Mai Ensmann: Yes.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Okay. I see. And so what kinds of companies have a security operations center? Like all different kinds of companies or is it a more specific sector?

Mai Ensmann: For sure, your larger companies will have a designated SOC. And I also wanted to mention that our program also provides career advisement. And so we'll have speakers come in, different human resources officer's speak to the students to help them prepare their resumes and LinkedIn profiles, and to help coach them on how to go through a technical interview.

Carol Fishman Cohen: It seems to me that there's probably pretty heavy demand for people with this skill set. And I'm guessing that the placement rate is pretty high. Any comments on that, or do you not track that part of it?

Mai Ensmann: We do track that part of it. It can be somewhat challenging placing an entry level person into a company. And so we do work closely with our industry partners in Tampa and across Florida to help with that transition and to help place our students in their companies.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Got it. Is Florida like a leader here, or are there counterpart organizations in other states too?

Mai Ensmann: I don't know of another state that has an agency quite like Cyber Florida, where we are the statewide resource for cyber security, where we work on education, outreach and research. And so our goal is to make Florida the preeminent state cyber security in the nation.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Very interesting. Mai, I want to ask you the question that we ask all of our podcasts guests, because we are wrapping up now, and I want to know if you can give your best piece of advice for a relauncher audience, even if it's something that we've already talked about before.

Mai Ensmann: Well, just to keep it simple, I would say, don't give up and don't get discouraged. It may take longer than you expected to relaunch. Own your story and be proud of all of your experiences and all the amazing skills that you have to offer. And also never be afraid to take on new challenges and to reinvent yourself.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Those are excellent pieces of advice. I hope everyone was listening closely. Can you give our audience information, especially those who are Florida residents, about Cyber Florida? Like how can they find out more about it? Is there a website or some other place where they can get information?

Mai Ensmann: So you would go to CyberFlorida.org, that's spelled out as one word. And if you're interested in our workforce development program, you would look underneath the education tab and you would find information about our Cyber Works program. And we will be launching a new program starting in January, but there will be new cohorts starting in the summer, and also in the fall of 2022.

Carol Fishman Cohen: So you're running this program on a regular basis at different times of the year?

Mai Ensmann: Yes.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Great. All right, super interesting. I'm going to have to explore this myself since I am newly a Florida resident. Mai, thank you so much for joining us today.

Mai Ensmann: Thank you so much. It was wonderful speaking with you today.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And it was great speaking with you hearing about your relaunch story and also learning all about Cyber Florida. And thanks for listening to 3,2,1 iRelaunch, the podcast where we discuss return to work strategies, advice, and success stories. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, the CEO and cofounder of iRelaunch and your host. For more information on iRelaunch conferences and events, to sign up for our job board and access our return to work tools and resources, go to iRelaunch.com.

And if you liked this podcast, be sure to rate it on Apple podcasts and your favorite podcast platform, and be sure to share this podcast with a friend on Facebook, Instagram and other social media. Thanks for joining us.